Thieves Guild[]
Is City-Swimmer a member of the Thieves Guild? andy 18:36, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
Recent Editing[]
Just a thought, what if this character IS a trans? And other characters refer to CS as female because CS look like a woman and they never bothered to ask or just didn't care? By the way, the Russian wiki says that it's a female too (the name is feminine), but mentions that CS sometimes talks about themself as a man. That made me thinking that CS has phrases that are not included on the page. I haven't found any videos with it, so I wonder if it is true. Maybe they can be included in the page so such quarrels do not happen anymore? --DreamSoulshine (talk) 15:46, January 5, 2018 (UTC)
Gender pronouns[]
I find it difficult to believe Elizabeth Noone (who exclusively voiced female beast races) read a line with specifically male pronouns TWICE on complete accident. I can't help but get the feeling some moderators on here are acting in bad faith based on their own personal politics and biases. The fact is none of us really KNOW what the intention was behind this character, but given the choice between female/male pronoun usage throughout the article, I feel the latter is preferable until the time comes (if ever) that an error can be confirmed by the developers. 2601:143:C501:ECE:C565:D083:C7CF:911F 22:04, November 20, 2018 (UTC)
- This has nothing to do about politics, as given that we are a wiki first and foremost we try to remain as unbiased and objective as possible. It is true that it has not been confirmed that this was a developer oversight to my knowledge, just as it hasn't been confirmed that this character truly identifies as male. However, the first is more likely to be the case, as similar mistakes have already made it in the games. Voice lines belonging to specific characters have been handed down as generic dialogue, and voice files of the actors reading a line twice because they didn't like the first attempt can be heard from multiple characters in Oblivion.
- If a time ever comes that it's confirmed that this was not an error, then we would have reason to change the pronouns. As it stands, we would be going out of our way if we changed the pronouns as not even the character in question supports the claim that they identify as male. In this case, the game files are what should determine her gender, and not the assumed opinion of the character. Rozty (talk) 22:22, November 20, 2018 (UTC)
- To make this more clear, the information that we use in the infobox (and indirect mentions of it) is derived from the Construction Set for Oblivion in order to prevent clashes over otherwise subjective matters such as this. Right now, because City-Swimmer is referred to as a woman in the Construction Set, that is what the article is going to say. This wiki as an institution is supportive of forms of self-expression such as the changing of one's gender identity, so I would not assume bad faith here. But, first and foremost, we are still an encyclopedia.
- We acknowledge the inconsistency in City-Swimmer's pronouns (hence the trivia point and infobox mention), but Bethesda's previous exclusion of transgender characters in TES, coupled with their proclivity to occasionally mismatch dialogue lines, would lead me to believe that this is simply a mistake. To my knowledge, the only other transgender characters in TES are Vivec (post-apotheosis) and, recently, a character in the "Manor of Masques" quest in The Elder Scrolls Online: Summerset. —Atvelonis (talk) 14:58, November 21, 2018 (UTC)
- From my understanding according to in-game sources, Argonians are born essential genderless and only mature sexually after licking sap from the Hist tree a number of times. While the technicalities are left ambiguous, it stands to reason the precedent exists for non-gendered/non-binary gendered Argonians to exist. It's also possible (although unfortunate) that the diaolgue is intended to evoke a level of "unhingedness" to *her character. Whatever the case maybe, I feel if the wording in the article was tweaked just a bit to avoid masculine/feminie presumptions altogether and the infobox to "See Trivia", it would be satisfactory to everyone and in the long-run would end the need for debate and constant changes back and forth. Tastefulnoodz (talk) 21:40, November 23, 2018 (UTC)
- We acknowledge the inconsistency in City-Swimmer's pronouns (hence the trivia point and infobox mention), but Bethesda's previous exclusion of transgender characters in TES, coupled with their proclivity to occasionally mismatch dialogue lines, would lead me to believe that this is simply a mistake. To my knowledge, the only other transgender characters in TES are Vivec (post-apotheosis) and, recently, a character in the "Manor of Masques" quest in The Elder Scrolls Online: Summerset. —Atvelonis (talk) 14:58, November 21, 2018 (UTC)