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  • Ok, as you may have seen, there is some EXTREMELY confusing evidence regarding the age of the most powerful vampiric family in Skyrim. A few dialogue lines in Dawnguard suggest all three became vampires sometime after the dragon war, but a lot of other evidence suggests Serana becoming a Vampire and being locked up around a hundred years before the coming of the Tamrielic Empire, during the Great Interregnum in the Second Era. Just want your thoughts and theories, and whether you think or not that Bethesda can't come up with a coherent storyline to save a kitten.

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    • 2002 Maybe?

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    • If one ignores some of the inconsistencies you can place their age at around 4000 years.

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    • Razielplaysskyrim
      Razielplaysskyrim removed this reply because:
      He's openly saying that a character is gay and it's a little offensive the way he says it as if it's a terrible thing
      18:45, October 3, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • MeGa-WeReWoLf wrote:
      Hey I think Harkon is a tad gay cause when you think about it how many people has he really sucked... Oh and I agree about 4000years as miraak mentions harkon asking miraak to defeat Alduin.

      That's HAKON, one of the Three Nord Tounges whom defeated Alduin at the Battle of the Throat of the World, not Harkon, the Lord of Clan Volkihar.

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    • Ikabite
      Ikabite removed this reply because:
      irrelevant
      17:51, February 22, 2014
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    • AzuraKnight
      AzuraKnight removed this reply because:
      Replied to a offensive comment and made one.
      18:50, August 7, 2015
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    • Ikabite
      Ikabite removed this reply because:
      irrelevant
      17:52, February 22, 2014
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    • The Volkihar Family is very old, dating before the Dragon Wars.

      This is seen from Durnehviir's dialogue which states that Valerica was being held by the Ideal Masters since the time Dragons freely challenged and could afford to kill each other (before the Dragon Wars and their near extinction).

      "the Dovah roamed the skys, vying for their small pieces of territory that resulted in immense and ultimately fatal battles."

      "unlike some of my bretheren, I saught solutions outside the norm. In order to maintain my superiority, I began to explore what the dovah call, alok dilon, the ancient forbiden art that you call necromancy"

      "The Ideal Masters assured me that my powers would be unmatched, that I could raise legions of the undead. In return I was to serve them as a keeper until the death of the one who calls herself Valerica."

      "I discovered too late that the Ideal Masters favor deception over honor,"

      -Durnehviir

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    • There's a lot of contradicting evidence with this, but when you consider everything, it seems the most logical theory in my opinion is that Serana and her family we're from the end of the Second Era, likely the time of the Elder Scrolls Online. As her age is measured in centuries, and that could explain how her family possibly started worshipping Molag Bal (as he was a big figure) at the time. 

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      The Volkihar Family is very old, dating before the Dragon Wars.

      This is seen from Durnehviir's dialogue which states that Valerica was being held by the Ideal Masters since the time Dragons freely challenged and could afford to kill each other (before the Dragon Wars and their near extinction).

      "the Dovah roamed the skys, vying for their small pieces of territory that resulted in immense and ultimately fatal battles."

      "unlike some of my bretheren, I saught solutions outside the norm. In order to maintain my superiority, I began to explore what the dovah call, alok dilon, the ancient forbiden art that you call necromancy"

      "The Ideal Masters assured me that my powers would be unmatched, that I could raise legions of the undead. In return I was to serve them as a keeper until the death of the one who calls herself Valerica."

      "I discovered too late that the Ideal Masters favor deception over honor,"

      -Durnehviir

      Just adding in, that may not be proof of the "Old Volkihar" theory. As Durnehviir seems to talk about how the time he was alive was dangerous and that Dragons fought over places to stay, that could possibly mean that he's talking about a time after the Dragon War, where the handful of surviving Dragons were trying to find places to escape. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      The Volkihar Family is very old, dating before the Dragon Wars...
      Just adding in, that may not be proof of the "Old Volkihar" theory. As Durnehviir seems to talk about how the time he was alive was dangerous and that Dragons fought over places to stay, that could possibly mean that he's talking...

      I've argued with you over this before.

      Durnehviir specifically says that Dragons often killed each other during this time; after the Dragon War Dragons definitely couldn't afford to do this, in fact many had to go into hiding just to escape humans.

      The fact that Serana is suprised that there is an empire in Cyrodiil implies that she was locked up sometime in the Early First era which is supported by this direct statement

      "Serana was imprisoned in a stone coffin in Dimhollow Cavern from sometime in the First Era until the time of Skyrim in the Fourth."

      -http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2013/11/18/ask-us-anything-variety-pack-11

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      The Volkihar Family is very old, dating before the Dragon Wars...
      Just adding in, that may not be proof of the "Old Volkihar" theory. As Durnehviir seems to talk about how the time he was alive was dangerous and that Dragons fought over places to stay, that could possibly mean that he's talking...
      I've argued with you over this before...

      Currect, they often killed each other for places to hide, since it was vital that they do so, why would they be killing each other when Alduin was in power? Everything would belong to him. There would be no reason to fight over it. 

      I actually came up with an idea on why that is, the end of the Second Era, the Empire didn't exist anymore, being the time of the Elder Scrolls Online, that's why the Three Factions were fighting. Meaning, she might've been from the end of the Second Era. 

      I believe that was written by Zenimax, which may not be canon, since Bethesda was the one who came up with the lore.

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      The Volkihar Family is very old, dating before the Dragon Wars...
      Just adding in, that may not be proof of the "Old Volkihar" theory. As Durnehviir seems to talk about how the time he was alive was dangerous and that Dragons fought over places to stay, that could possibly mean that he's...
      I've argued with you over this before....
      Currect, they often killed each other for places to hide, since it was vital that they do so, why would they be killing each other when Alduin was in power? Everything would belong to him. There would be no reason to fight over it...

      Aye. It's not as if Zenimax has't contradicted lore already anyway.

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    • This guy knows. XD

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      The Volkihar Family is very old, dating before the Dragon Wars...
      Just adding in, that may not be proof of the "Old Volkihar" theory. As Durnehviir seems to talk about how the time he was alive was dangerous and that Dragons fought over places to stay, that could possibly mean...
      I've argued with you over this before...
      Currect, they often killed each other for places to hide, since it was vital that they do so, why would they be killing each other when Alduin was in power? Everything would belong to him. There would be no reason to fight...

      They killed each other for dominance not hiding spaces, Durnehviir says this.

      "unlike some of my bretheren, I saught solutions outside the norm. In order to maintain my superiority,"

      Also Harkon is quoted at saying this

      "Not just vampires. We are among the oldest and most powerful vampires"

      Vampire clans date to a time when Nedes nomadically roamed Tamriel, this is around the Middle-Later Merethic Era.

      If The Volkihars are some of the First Vampires then their is no doubt they date to the Merethic Era.

      I actually came up with an idea on why that is, the end of the Second Era, the Empire didn't exist anymore

      Yes but no one would be suprised that there was an empire in Cyrodiil, as that isn't new news. Two empires had existed in Cyrodiil before the Interregnum (Three if you count the Ayleids), just about everyone in Cyrodiil was fighting to recreate the Empire at this time.

      Serana being suprised that there is an empire in Cyrodiil just wouldn't make sense in these circumstances.

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    • He never talks about Dominance though, only land wanted by the Dragons, why would they want land if Alduin was the ruler is my question? It doesn't make sense to me. 

      Harkon is a known liar, so he may not be the most accurate source. Anyway, if what he said was true, he also said in Skyrim. Not Tamriel. Meaning that he could possibly he one of the oldest Vampire clans currently still in Skyrim. 

      Ever since the Nords came to Tamriel the Aleyids have had an Empire in Cyrodiil. Meaning that your argument could also apply if she was from the Merethic Era. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      He never talks about Dominance though, only land wanted by the Dragons, why would they want land if Alduin was the ruler is my question? It doesn't make sense to me...

      He never talks about Dominance though

      "In order to maintain my superiority,"

      Dominance and Superiority mean the same thing.

      Harkon is a known liar, so he may not be the most accurate source

      Please tell me one time Harkon lied, the man appears quite straight forward to me.

      Anyway, if what he said was true, he also said in Skyrim.

      For all we know the first vampire was in Skyrim, I mean it does say;

      "Bal profaned her body, and her screams became the Shrieking Winds, which still haunt certain winding fjords of Skyrim."

      -Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie

      Ever since the Nords came to Tamriel the Aleyids have had an Empire in Cyrodiil.

      Actually that was my bad, I looked it up. The Ayleids had an alliance of Kingdoms and city-states, not an Empire.


      And to add even more evidence to my theory;

      "In an age long forgotten to history, I ruled as a mighty king." -Harkon

      The Intereggnum is definitely not an "age long forgotten"

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    • I don't think he was talking about gaining territory, he was talking about being above the savegry of his fellow Dovah (Atleast that's my interpretation of it). 

      Claming he was a king (due to historical inconsistancies this was most likely a lie), claming he sacrificed a thousand innocents to Molag Bal (Same reason as the king thing, historically, it doesn't add up). 

      As I explained in the previous comment, he could've meant the oldest one that's still around. Windhelm is considered the oldest city in Skyrim, but really, the oldest one is Saarthal. Could be the same. 

      Ah, it's worth noting that most Nords are probably not completely educated though, so they could have ignorance of these Empires. In addition, she could be surprised a new one was founded, as the foundation of a new Empire anywhere in Tamriel may be quite shocking. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      I don't think he was talking about gaining territory, he was talking about being above the savegry of his fellow Dovah (Atleast that's my interpretation of it)...

      he was talking about being above the savegry of his fellow Dovah

      Above the savagery by learning necromancy so he could dominate the other dovah in fights -_-

      He never once says anything about the dovah being savages, in fact he seems to miss the times he fought other dragons. Don't forget that to dragons, fighting is actually a form of verbal debate, and who ever wins the debate is superior; and dragons love being dominant.

      Claming he was a king (due to historical inconsistancies this was most likely a lie)

      Unless you apply it to the Merethic Era where his reign actually makes sense.

      it's worth noting that most Nords are probably not completely educated though, so they could have ignorance of these Empires.

      Ignorance to the Empires that ruled them... C'mon man.

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    • It might be considered more intellegent to do so, then just being violent. It's still violence none the less, and he knows it. As he even said, he's was different from the other Dragons. 

      When you consider how Ysgramor's dynasty ruled at the time, it makes even less sense in my opinion. 

      It's possible. Most Canadians don't even know who the head of state is, and we have universal education. :P 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      It might be considered more intellegent to do so, then just being violent. It's still violence none the less, and he knows it. As he even said, he's was different from the other Dragons...

      As he even said, he's was different from the other Dragons.

      No? Unless your referring to him saying "I saught solutions outside the norm." in which is obvious refering to his practice of necromancy to defeat his enemies.

      You do realize Durnehviir literally states that he participated in these fights.

      Durnehviir: "The Dov roamed the skies, vying for their small slices of territory that resulted in immense and ultimately fatal battles"

      Dovahkiin: "So, you were a part of all that?"

      Durnehviir: "I was. But unlike some of my brethren, I sought solutions outside of the norm, in order to maintain my superiority"

      When you consider how Ysgramor's dynasty ruled at the time

      I believe I have told you this before on your "Dawnguard Follow-up"

      "there is a reason they are called High Kings. Just because all the holds in TESV were ruled by Jarls doesn't mean a hold can't be ruled by a King, an example of this would be King Mantiarco of Solitude or Queen Macalla of Dawnstar. The reason why a High King is called a High Kings is because they have the ability to rule over other lesser Kingdoms"

      -Me

      Just because Harkon was a King doesn't mean he was the High King;

      It's possible. Most Canadians don't even know who the head of state is

      Except the Volkihars are royalty, if an empire ruled over them they would literally have to know that it existed; due to the fact that vassals pay taxes to their superiors.

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    • I find it ironic that Serana has a very modern type of attitude, considering that she's thousands of years old and has been locked away for a very long time.  The way she talks and her attitude/disposition/whateveryouwanttocallit makes me think she's from the future (compared to the era of time that TESV: Skyrim is set in), not the past.  THE most interesting character in the entire game of TESV, I.M.H.O.  She wouldn't be out of place in a Fallout game, I think.

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    • "Cyrodiil is the seat of an empire? I must have been gone longer than I thought. Definitely longer than we planned."
      - Serana

      This implies that her family have been Molag Bal cultists long before Alessia's slave rebellion, possibly around the time when the first human vampire was "made" by the Prince Of Domination himself.

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    • @Dovahsbrom

      That doesn't prove that he doesn't think that per se. Since some creatures can change. 

      Technically they were only given independent rule due to the Empire's influence, when Skyrim was independent it was one Kingdom, someone else ruled the land, it would be multiple kingdoms. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      @Dovahsbrom

      That doesn't prove that he doesn't think that per se. Since some creatures can change. 

      Technically they were only given independent rule due to the Empire's influence, when Skyrim was independent it was one Kingdom, someone else ruled the land, it would be multiple kingdoms. 

      • I'm sure he had time to become a pacifist during his thousands of years of complete mind-slavery -_-
      Seriously dude, Durnehviir is definitely one who enjoys fighting. He even calls himself a "warrior" . When you say he is a worthy opponent he thanks you for it. Quit denying the evidence Zipper.
      • What? can you please rephrase that?
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    • Maybe he just wanted to find a way to destroy them, instead of pointlessly fighting, which seems like it solved nothing, and didn't offer much safety or very stable peace. 

      I'm saying, Skyrim was one Kingdom, not two. Unless he was High King, he didn't have all the power. Which gets me to think that was a lie on his part. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Maybe he just wanted to find a way to destroy them, instead of pointlessly fighting, which seems like it solved nothing, and didn't offer much safety or very stable peace. 

      I'm saying, Skyrim was one Kingdom, not two. Unless he was High King, he didn't have all the power. Which gets me to think that was a lie on his part. 

      seems like it solved nothing, and didn't offer much safety or very stable peace.

      The reasons why Dragons fought was because they loved to fight; they loved to proove themselves, they loved to be the superior.

      Death was not a problem for dragons, don't forget Alduin would revive dead dragons (unless they absorbed each others souls, which I doubt they did seeing as all dragons only give you one soul when you kill them).

      I'm saying, Skyrim was one Kingdom

      A High King can vassalize Kings, if that wasn't the case then they wouldn't be called High Kings.

      he didn't have all the power.

      If you are referring to this quote;

      "My domain was vast, my riches endless and my power infinite."

      He isn't necessarily lieing, he is embroidering, in a way they aren't the same exact thing as he isn't necessarily hiding the truth, just exaggerating it in a noticeable way (no one can have infinite riches or power).

      when he says "infinite power" that probably just means he had alot of power (this was the time of the Dragon Priests after all, when the common population was severely abused by their superiors).

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    • Think about how superior he would be inf he found a power the other Dragons couldn't fight against. 

      I know, and Harkon couldn't have been that king since he isn't related to the Ysgramor Dynasty. 

      Remeber, I said before, he was a major liar. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Think about how superior he would be inf he found a power the other Dragons couldn't fight against. 

      I know, and Harkon couldn't have been that king since he isn't related to the Ysgramor Dynasty. 

      Remeber, I said before, he was a major liar. 

      Think about how superior he would be inf he found a power the other Dragons couldn't fight against.

      That's the whole point dude, the reason why he made a deal with the Ideal Masters was so he could have power that made him stronger than all other dragons (other than Alduin of course)

      I know, and Harkon couldn't have been that king since he isn't related to the Ysgramor Dynasty.

      MY GOD MAN! I'm saying he was a King not a High King; the High King's were descended from Ysgramor, the Kings don't have to be.

      Remeber, I said before, he was a major liar.

      embroidering ≠ major liar -_-

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    • I know I agree. Why are we even talking about this, does this have anything to do with our conversation? LOL

      If he wasen't a High King, he couldn't have sacrificed a thousand innocents or have a "Vast Domain and limitless wealth", due to the fact that their power would be in balence from the High King and would have less them they would. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      If he wasen't a High King, he couldn't have sacrificed a thousand innocents or have a "Vast Domain and limitless wealth", due to the fact that their power would be in balence from the High King and would have less them they would. 

      "the dragon priests ruled men as equals to the kings"

      -The Dragon War

      This quote shows that the power held by Dragon Priests was equal to the power to that of kings (such as Harkon). Knowing that Dragon Priests had absolute power over their people, we can assume that people like Harkon could get away with things like mass murder easier.

      As for the "Vast domains" don't forget provinces are much bigger than they appear in-game, if Harkon ruled over Haafingar (the kingdom he was most likely the ruler of) that means he ruled over a land probably around the size of Great Britain (by MK's scale).

      And the "limitless wealth"; as I said before, is hyperbolic, an exaggeration. It just means he had alot of money, which I wouldn't doubt seeing how large his secret castle is.

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    • Harkon a Dragon Priest? I don't think that could work, he couldn't have abandoned Alduin that easily, and I assume he would've called himself that, as opposed to a king. 

      My point is, it's hard to say that a Hold is "Limitless" land when you have all of Skyrim to compare it to. Unless he's very humble, which doesn't really fit his personality. 

      I always thought he stole that Castle after he became a Vampire, Serana does talk about the "Original Owners" often. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Harkon a Dragon Priest? I don't think that could work, he couldn't have abandoned Alduin that easily, and I assume he would've called himself that, as opposed to a king...


      I'm not saying he is a dragon priest I'm saying he had power equivalent to one (hence the quote).

      Vast doesn't mean limitless, it just means large.

      hmm.. I do think I might remember hearing that but I can't find the quote, can you post it?

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    • The kings basically just means Nobles and whatnot, they still probably answered to the High King. 

      She talks about it a lot when you're on the quest to find Valerica. 

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    • Well, we won't know unless Bethesda confirms it. Or MK decides to throw some particularly weird shit our way...again.

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      The kings basically just means Nobles and whatnot, they still probably answered to the High King. 

      She talks about it a lot when you're on the quest to find Valerica. 

      "King" is a specific title, and if you haven't been listening to me before I've basically been saying that yes, Harkon was under the High-King.

      I found it ;

      "The previous owners of the castle had a sundial in the courtyard"

      but I also found this;

      "He's a... powerful man. Or at least used to be."

      Which implies that he could have at one point been a king, (and not coming from him). My guess is that the castle was owned by one of his vassals, but who knows.

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    • He couldn't have committed mass murder under the High King, they would've stopped him, and he wouldn't have control over all the armies. 

      I theorize it might be the Castle of some small Kingdom from northern High Rock, Pickleseller said that if you ask to get a rid there from boat you call it an Island near High Rock. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      He couldn't have committed mass murder under the High King, they would've stopped him, and he wouldn't have control over all the armies. 

      I theorize it might be the Castle of some small Kingdom from northern High Rock, Pickleseller said that if you ask to get a rid there from boat you call it an Island near High Rock. 

      This is why he went into hiding, even the High King would not be able to get away with mass-murdering civilians.

      It's possible that it is an old fortress of the Direnni Hegemony but the thing just looks too damn Nordic to me.

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    • It's still not making sense to me, why didn't he stop him while he was doing it? I highly doubt he could kill that many people all at once. Maybe we shoud just agree to disagree on this fact. 

      I thought it looked a little different than other Nordic structures. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      I thought it looked a little different than other Nordic structures. 

      Yes it looks different in someways but the stone placement looks very similar.

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    • Well, it looks like we've gone off topic, we can discuss this on my talk page if you interested. Or even one of my blog comment sections. 

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    • I don't care WHO/WHAT/WHEN/WHERE Harkon comes from, I just like him xD

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    • 70.77.217.65 wrote:
      I don't care WHO/WHAT/WHEN/WHERE Harkon comes from, I just like him xD

      In that case, my friend, you've come to the wrong board.

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    • 1E 105

      I dont think that Serana could be from Merethic Era

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    • Who thought they were from the Merethic Era?

      There are two theories, either they are from the First Era or from the Second Era. In the First Era I personally think that for Harkon to have been a King they must be from before 1E 143, which is when Harald united Skyrim under him and became the first High King. If they were from this time Harkon could have been a King in western Skyrim, probably near Haafingar, as the province wasn't united under one King at that time. The other belief is that they are from the second Era, the major factor in this theory is that during the Interregnum there was a lot of Molag Bal influence in Tamriel (Events of ESO and such).

      I personally believe the First Era theory as I don't think that just because Molag Bal invaded Tamriel in the Second Era that it is enough proof for them to have been from that time period. Since there is no way Harkon was a King if he was from that time, and I chose to believe most of what Harkon claims.

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    • I think Harkon becamed a vampire in First Era Second Century

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    • You're all assuming that Harkon originated as a king in Skyrim.

      It's possible that he was King in another country or continent and he simply moved to Skyrim at an unspecified time.

      This is probably unlikely though since there is no mention of this move at any point that I can think of.

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    • 203.166.226.187 wrote:
      You're all assuming that Harkon originated as a king in Skyrim.

      It's possible that he was King in another country or continent and he simply moved to Skyrim at an unspecified time.

      This is probably unlikely though since there is no mention of this move at any point that I can think of.

      You have no knowlege of the lore do you first there are no countries only provinces second 1 continet merith does not exist acorrding to MK 2  atmora and yokuda are uninhabitable and have been so since possiblly merethic era and the last akavir debatably has no nords only tamriel would make sense plus he said skyrim outright

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    • A province is a division of a country or empire, so if there was no empire at the time that he was king then it is unlikely that it would have been called a province.

      But I agree with you which is why I said:

      "This is probably unlikely though since there is no mention of this move at any point that I can think of."

      I was simply putting the idea out there.

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    • As a note on Serana's age she sometimes says:

      "I was always taught to avoid these types of ruins. I think I see why, now."

      This suggests that when she was younger, possibly when she was a child, the nordic tombs scattered across were already considered to be ruins. Another thing that supports this is that she makes the comment:

      "Nordic ruins. Even older than I am. I wonder if the draugr are as gullible as they were when I was a girl."

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    • 203.166.226.187 wrote: As a note on Serana's age she sometimes says:

      "I was always taught to avoid these types of ruins. I think I see why, now."

      This suggests that when she was younger, possibly when she was a child, the nordic tombs scattered across were already considered to be ruins. Another thing that supports this is that she makes the comment:

      "Nordic ruins. Even older than I am. I wonder if the draugr are as gullible as they were when I was a girl."

      Ysgramor came in the Late Merethic era, before the first Era where Molag Bal created Lamae Beolfag into the first pure-blood vampire. But finally someone can say something no-one can argue about... I would say about 273 years for Serana. No proof. I just like that number, and I like Serana hanging around with me. Poof.

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    • 273 years was hardly even before the Oblivion Crisis, at the end of the THIRD era. If it was in the later part of the second era that places her from 1000 to about 1500 and if it was the first about 2000.

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    • I think it's fairly clear they became vampires during the first era. Also, I think the fact he addresses himself as 'king' instead of 'Jarl' or 'High King' makes it entirely possible he ruled in High Rock, possibly when the Nords expanded in High Rock. But, I think it's quite obvious Serana and the rest of the Clan spent a great deal of time in Skyrim, so the possibility of them ruler of a territory in Skyrim can't be ruled out.  

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    • My question is, when was Solitude built? Serana mentions how she could always see Solitude from the castle, and it was just as she imagined it. I know it's been around for many, many years, and I would assume it was founded by the survivors of the five hundred, similar to how Whiterun and Windhelm came into being. However, I'm not certain. Anyone know more?

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    • Nope, it's never mentioned when Solitude was built. It is, however, worth noting that it was first called Haafingar (that's where the hold name comes from), which seems like pre-imperial name. You know, then the Empire came and translated it to their language. So I'm pretty sure that Solitude/Haafingar was founded before the Empire, though it was probably a smaller port before it became a capital.


      As for the age discussion, I've read a lot about it and played the game..well, too much, really. Also, as someone who writes TES fanfiction (yes, I know) I've studied its lore extensively. As mentioned, the evidence is very contradicting, but after analyzing it all I'd still go for late First era rather than the Second. She can't be from Merethic era, because:

      - vampires didn't yet exist (as a poster cited above, Lamae was created at the beginning of the First era)

      - she says that Nordic tombs were "ruins" even when she was a child, further supporting late First era origins

      - she asks "Who's the High king?", meaning this was after Harald, because before him such a title didn't exist

      - as for the famous "there's an empire in Cyrodiil?" quote, here's my two cents;

      - Harkon claims he was a king while he was alive, so we can suppose this was after the Ysgramor dynasty (after Borgas' death in 1E 369), otherwise he wouldn't have ascended to power (also, as mentioned, the castle had "previous owners")

      - Alessian empire never ruled Skyrim (they launched conquests, true, but they never managed to take it over) so we can presume that Volkihar clan / royal family was founded and ruled either in the time of Alessian decline or in the period between the end of the Alessian order (first empire) and the founding of Reman's empire (second empire)

      - there is, however, one very big issue with the end of the Alessian order, seeing as the timeline on the wiki has two entries for its end, set roughly a thousand years apart, adding to the already strong confusion (one is 1E 1250 and the other 1E 2321)

      - then again, this conflict of events can be easily chalked up to the Middle dawn (a dragon break) that is said to have lasted 1008 years, from 1E 1200 to 1E 2208, which, cuirously, coincides almost precisely with these two possible endings of the Alessian order

      - by the second account of its end, 1E 2321, it ended with the War of Righteousness, in which almost all written history was destroyed, which would furter support Serana's lack of knowledge about any empire in Cyrodiil, especially if we consider how secluded Skyrim actually is because of the Jerall mountains


      And that's about it, what my research amounts to. Ultimately, it's probably Bethesda's inconsistencies in writing/creating lore that lead to this confusion, but what can we do. My conclusion is therefore that the Volkihar clan ruled as royalty and subsequently became vampires somewhere bethween 1E 2321 and 1E 2703, which leaves for a nice window of "no empire in Cyrodiil" and kings in Skyrim. It also leaves the Volkihars with enough time to become vampires and for Harkon to get obsessed with the prophecy and Serana to get buried in Dimhollow Crypt, placing her at, say 200-300 yrs old when she was buried. Now I'm too lazy to do the math from there to 4E 201, but I'm guessing it adds up to an age around 2000 years, probably less.

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    • okay, so I did the math, and my estimate was very accurate. she's somewhere between 2049 and 1949 yrs old, maybe +/- 50 yrs of difference. Depends when you guess the Volkihars were founded


      So, still very old, and goes nicely along with Harkon's claim that they are one of the oldest vampires in Skyrim.

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    • I have to say, you did your research and I do agree with your hypothesis. I think your theory is the most sound on the Volkihar's Origin, as it fits with every claim made by the Clan's vampires...unlike some of the other theories. I now chose to believe your theory.

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    • Thanks. ;)

      As I said, I write fanfic, and I'm one of those obnoxious people who'd rather spend two hours browsing the wiki and learning lore than going in blind and just slapping in some half-researched facts. I know most people don't actually check on this stuff, but I, for one, get really annoyed when folks write gaping loopholes into their fic, so... yep, did my research the best I could.

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    • All we know for sure is that they're older than the Empire. Let's ask Vegeta for their age. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik

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    • I still don't get how there can be a 1453 year gap of 1E going by the theory above, that's literally impossible. Aren't eras based more on the year age and not based on empires founded and what not. There's definitely inconsistencies going on here which makes finding any facts to be distorted since bethesda keeps messing up their own stuff. 

      With this said i've assumed Serana and fam to be like 4k years old before but i suppose between 2k-4k is good enough. 

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    • I see people bringing up that Serana knows about Solitude and the title of High King. But it seems to me that everyone is missing a key point in all of this. There was a period of time (likely a long period) between when Serana was turned into a vampire, and when she was placed in torpor by Valerica. So we know that Solitude was called Solitude, there was no Empire in Cyrodiil, and there was a High King of Skyrim when she went to sleep. What we don't know is how old she was when she went down. Lamae may have been the first vampire, but who's to say that Molag Bal didn't have that appointment with the Volkihars the very next day, or even if the account in Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie is even accurate in saying that she was the first? Ancient lore, by and large, comes from the books. Books confirmed to be written with bias, embelishments and outright lies.

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    • you make a fair point, but what you seem to forget is that Harkon claims that he was a king / Serana says he was a king (I can't remember which of the two says it, sorry) before he became a vampire. So while they could've found out about high kings after sticking around for a couple of centuries... well, there were no kings in Skyrim before them, so... 


      Also, I quote myself from a couple posts above:

      - she says that Nordic tombs were "ruins" even when she was a child, further supporting late First era origins

      if she were from the Merethic era she'd have known a Skyrim without Nordic tombs, would she not?

      Also, in the creation kit she's marked as a Nord, but you could chalk that up to game/dev stuff. I don't think they would have gone and created another category "atmorans" just for the Volkihar clan. And since Lamae is said to have belonged to Nedic tribes the Volkihars would've definitely have been atmorans, if they exsisted in her time / shortly after.


      At least that's what I think. Feel free to correct me, I could've easily gotten something wrong :)

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    • Doesn't Serana say that about the Dwarven Ruins though? Unless Bethesda were lazy and didn't put much thought into her lore to have her say that about any cave( nordic or dwarven) because dwarves weren't nords 

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    • I think it's mentioned as a part of some specific dialogue?

      Though honesty I'm pretty unsure...


      then again, it could be just laziness on Bethesda's part. wouldn't be the first time

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    • AzuraKnight
      AzuraKnight removed this reply because:
      Empty reply with way to much empty space.
      18:47, August 7, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Im just sitting here looking at all the stuff yall are talking about- Merethic Era, Ysgramor Dynasty, Alessias Rebellion, a dozen different empires from Cyrodil- what is all that stuff?

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    • That, my friend, is lore :P If you're in the TES fandom just for the games then I guess that wouldn't really interest you, but since you're poking around an obscure talk page about a pretty non-important subject, game-wise, I reckon you are interested in this side of TES after all.

      For starters I recommend reading the timeline page (I'd link it, but I'm on mobile).

      All the stuff that's mentioned here (and there) is nicely linked, so a couple hours' reading is guaranteed. ;)

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    • I'm also sure some of this is also mentioned within the games books if you took the time to read any of them fully(not just looking for skill upgrades). :)

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    • 173.74.140.75 wrote:
      Im just sitting here looking at all the stuff yall are talking about- Merethic Era, Ysgramor Dynasty, Alessias Rebellion, a dozen different empires from Cyrodil- what is all that stuff?

      you do not wan't to go into that rabbit hole trust me the history of TES is huge for example this is just one kalpa and alduin eats the world to begin the next one maby in the next one mundus isn't craeated actualy now that I think about it you woulden't know what that is

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    • AzuraKnight
      AzuraKnight removed this reply because:
      No one asked (and most people know) so lets not go there.
      18:58, August 7, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • If 173.74 is still watching the thread after so many months the eras are time periods (a bit like our stone age, bronze age etc) the wiki page going though the ages with all of the major events is here, and the page for all the different empires is here.

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    • On the original topic of this thread, I think we can all agree that Harkon and his family(before they became Vampire Lords) all came into Tamrielic history of Nirn during the Late Merethic Era.  The Volkihar clan may as well be from the same time period, judging from the rather plausible and more sensible evidence as provided by Dovahsebrom.

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    • I still disagree with that, but everyone is entitled to think what they want I guess. That's the beauty of C0DA. xD

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    • smart answer incoming!: the exact time that serana was underground was about after the oblivion crisis in the 3rd era or was it 1st era i have no clue ANYWAYS i became to know that Serana age was really 300 years old and counting, Harkon age is about 1000 years old and same with Valerica but shes about 900 years old.

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    • Serana was locked away long before the Oblivion Crisis as she'd never heard of the Empire (and likely the Septim Empire), like her wiki page says she was probably sealed away in the second era. She's probably well over 300.

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    • oh im not so smart than Azura Knight...

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    • I've actually posted some stuff about this. There is significant evidence to say that Serana knew Dwarves.

      This would imply that she was around long, long before the first era.

      She also makes comments about Ysgramor in Windhelm that, while not as definite as the comments about Dwarves, may suggest she was at least alive in the same time as hime.

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    • 209.151.52.209 wrote:
      I've actually posted some stuff about this. There is significant evidence to say that Serana knew Dwarves...

      To add on to this, Serana became a Daughter of Coldhabour as a result of a ceremony in the temple of Molag Bal, wherein she was presumably raped; as we are all aware. Well; we know from early ES games  and somewhat Skyrim, Molag Bal implies that there hasn't been a substantial following of him since "before the ages of man."

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    • Serana was only put in the coffin yesterday. She's just a very good actor. 

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    • the dragon born is half dragon so you could probobly live up to 500 years 

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    • Wally123 wrote:
      the dragon born is half dragon so you could probobly live up to 500 years 

      wait could any of them know who miraak is if they dont they just have no knowlege what so ever 

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    • typo knowlage

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    • Dragonborn probably don't live any longer than anyone else (naturally anyway), their body is just the same as any other mortals. Please stay on the topic of the Volkihar clans age though.

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    • sorry about the off topic thing it just came to mind becuse during the entier dawngared story line only Durnehviir notices you as as dragonborn

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    • As for the individual members of the clan, namely Harkon, Serana, and Valerica, it reasonable to think that they were all relatively young prior to contracting Vampirism. For Serana, I would put her age at approximately 15 to 20 years, given her lack of wrinkles or physical aging aside from female puberty, and also based on her personality and dialogue. The same could also be said for Valerica, though much older, around 35 to 40 years of age, with the exception of her personality, which seems to be more of caution and wisdom. As for Harkon, his age could also be similar to Valerica, though it would not be unreasonable to think his physical appearance suggests him of being around 5 years older.

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    • Ottoman Hold
      Ottoman Hold removed this reply because:
      Off Topic. Why did this anon write this?
      21:19, March 29, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Hey how about miraak did he younger than them?

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    • wait are they before first era begone?

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    • then i could ask anythings that before dragonborn will born! to serana

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    • 49.49.250.245 wrote: Hey how about miraak did he younger than them?

      No. Despite the disputes that have occurred over Serana's (as well as Harkon's age), it is almost universally agreed atleast on the Wiki that Miraak predates them. He is likely from the time of Ysgramor

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    • AzuraKnight wrote:
      Serana was locked away long before the Oblivion Crisis as she'd never heard of the Empire (and likely the Septim Empire), like her wiki page says she was probably sealed away in the second era. She's probably well over 300.

      According to the source, she was locked away in the late Second Era, before the rise of the Septim Empire and after the fall of the Reman Empire. She has probably never heard of Tiber Septim as she wouldn't be surprised about an Empire in Cyrodiil if she had heard of him. Since the Daggerfall Covenant had the goal of restoring the Reman Empire and evidently failed to do so, I would say that she was sealed away after the events of the Three Banners War. This places her age somewhere between 650ish and 1000.

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    • Is this still up for debate???

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    • I believe they are in the range of 1,000+ years rather than over 3000 or 4000.

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    • I'm surprised that nobody has quoted Serana's own comment: "They say this is the Fourth Era. I think I may have been locked away in the First." I replayed Skyrim just now after growing tired of Fallout 4, and she definitely says that at one point if you pick the right conversation option. (Perhaps this subject, too, was beaten to death in some other thread, and then I apologize.)

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    • Is there any possible way of finding out the age of the Elder Scroll she had on her back when the Dragonborn finds her "buried",to put it that way,in Dimhollow Crypt and would it help us determine her age?

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      It's still not making sense to me, why didn't he stop him while he was doing it? I highly doubt he could kill that many people all at once. Maybe we shoud just agree to disagree on this fact. 

      I thought it looked a little different than other Nordic structures. 

      Before becoming a vampire, Harkon ruled as a mighty king and his domain was said to be vast and powerful. As the years passed and death approached, Harkon began to fear his own mortality. To combat the inevitable, he made a pact with Molag Bal and sacrificed a thousand innocents in his name. In return, the Daedric Prince granted him immortality by turning him and his family into pure-blooded vampires, giving birth to the Volkihar bloodline.

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    • CrazyStoryTeller wrote:
      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      It's still not making sense to me, why didn't he stop him while he was doing it? I highly doubt he could kill that many people all at once. Maybe we shoud just agree to disagree on this fact. 

      I thought it looked a little different than other Nordic structures. 

      Before becoming a vampire, Harkon ruled as a mighty king and his domain was said to be vast and powerful. As the years passed and death approached, Harkon began to fear his own mortality. To combat the inevitable, he made a pact with Molag Bal and sacrificed a thousand innocents in his name. In return, the Daedric Prince granted him immortality by turning him and his family into pure-blooded vampires, giving birth to the Volkihar bloodline.

      Remeber, Harkon likes to lie and exaggerate, so I highly doubt his kingdom covered the majority of Skyrim. The most likely scenario is that he was King of Haafingar ruling in Solitude

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    • Stark of Winterfell wrote:
      CrazyStoryTeller wrote:
      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      It's still not making sense to me, why didn't he stop him while he was doing it? I highly doubt he could kill that many people all at once. Maybe we shoud just agree to disagree on this fact. 

      I thought it looked a little different than other Nordic structures. 

      Before becoming a vampire, Harkon ruled as a mighty king and his domain was said to be vast and powerful. As the years passed and death approached, Harkon began to fear his own mortality. To combat the inevitable, he made a pact with Molag Bal and sacrificed a thousand innocents in his name. In return, the Daedric Prince granted him immortality by turning him and his family into pure-blooded vampires, giving birth to the Volkihar bloodline.
      Remeber, Harkon likes to lie and exaggerate, so I highly doubt his kingdom covered the majority of Skyrim. The most likely scenario is that he was King of Haafingar ruling in Solitude

      This is not a lie it actually happened there is even a Skyrim wiki which says he did that.Dont believe me?Here is the proof:  http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lord_Harkon search his Background.

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    • CrazyStoryTeller wrote:

      This is not a lie it actually happened there is even a Skyrim wiki which says he did that.Dont believe me?Here is the proof:  http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lord_Harkon search his Background.

      Yes, and that is a quote from Harkon himself, who is....known to lie and exaggerate in order to  aggrandize himself in front of other people. He tells that he "Was a mighty king of a vast and powerful realm" to a VL Dragonborn in order to both impress and threaten him/her.

      You have to take information in the Elder Scrolls, especially if it comes from a person with an obvious agenda, with a huge grain of salt. Take, for instance, "The Bear of Markarth", which was written by a very anti-Stormcloak Imperial scholar. Did the massacre of the Reachmen happen? Yes. Was it on the order of Ulfric? Debatable, as there is evidence that it was actually Igmund and the Silver-Bloods who ordered the pogrom to be carried out.

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    • CrazyStoryTeller wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      It's still not making sense to me, why didn't he stop him while he was doing it? I highly doubt he could kill that many people all at once. Maybe we shoud just agree to disagree on this fact. 

      I thought it looked a little different than other Nordic structures. 

      Before becoming a vampire, Harkon ruled as a mighty king and his domain was said to be vast and powerful. As the years passed and death approached, Harkon began to fear his own mortality. To combat the inevitable, he made a pact with Molag Bal and sacrificed a thousand innocents in his name. In return, the Daedric Prince granted him immortality by turning him and his family into pure-blooded vampires, giving birth to the Volkihar bloodline.

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Zippertrain85/Dawnguard_Conclusion

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    • Nebenthe wrote:
      I find it ironic that Serana has a very modern type of attitude, considering that she's thousands of years old and has been locked away for a very long time.  The way she talks and her attitude/disposition/whateveryouwanttocallit makes me think she's from the future (compared to the era of time that TESV: Skyrim is set in), not the past.  THE most interesting character in the entire game of TESV, I.M.H.O.  She wouldn't be out of place in a Fallout game, I think.

      I totally agree with you. She's one of the few characters who the dragonborn can develop an emotional relationship with. By the looks of things, she became a vampire in her twenties or early thirties. Harkon would have found out about the prophecy after becoming a vampire, which we know from Serana's wiki page happened in the second era. Valceria then locked Serana up and left Volkihar. I think we can assume that this happened during the events of ESO, becuase the Vestige defeating Molag Bal would have been a great distraction for Valerica and Serana to escape. Another theory I have is that a Pureblood vampire can age until maturity, given on line from Serana in which she mentions that "A little vampire girl was all it took to scare off the rats". This tells me that my theory about aging is correct, as she isn't a corpse or anything when the Dovakiin (is that how you spell it?) finds her. She probably acts so much like a young woman (rather than an old woman) becuase she was locked away when she was in her twenties, and so only knows what it's like to be a 25-ish year old. An immortal, undead, nocturnal 25-ish year old. As for Harkon, he looks either on the bad side of his forties, or the good side of his thirties. Valerica looks a similar age to Harkon. Those are my theories at least. Thanks for reading, my fellow Dragonborns/Champions of Cyrodiil/Nerevarines/Vestiges/I probably should have stopped at Dragonborn.

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    • It's spelled "Dovahkiin." Also, I agree with At'Ria.

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    • 71.205.197.205 wrote:
      It's spelled "Dovahkiin." Also, I agree with At'Ria.

      Thanks for the spelling correction!

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    • A FANDOM user
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