Before i start i just want to point out that i am of no qualification a lorenut, so excuse me if this sounds like a rather dumb question.
I have been particulary interested in the meaning of the word "Amaranth", which seems to pop up in the majority of MKs works. From what i can gather "Amaranth" is a diety and/or a title of some kind. This is only from what i can gather, though, and i have created this thread to find the answer.
Amaranth is a somewhat complex topic. I'll try to explain it as good as I can, although you can also inform yourself about complex lore topics in the Imperial Library.
So, Amaranth is basicly a person becoming a new Godhead and dreaming his own dream. If you don't know yet, the TES Universe is basicly a "dream" (it's a very realistical dream, though, not just a "normal" dream) of an unconscious entity called the "Godhead", which is sleeping.
The first step to Amaranth is to achieve CHIM. Achieving CHIM requires that a person understands that the World is just a "dream" and that individuality doesn't exist, but that person still has to maintain a personality and has to be able to say "I". Remember, this is a very rough explanation.
So, if a person succeeds in both things, then that person achieves CHIM. A "CHIMster" is basicly like a lucid dreamer inside a dream: he can actively alter the dream through his will. However, most CHIMsters don't do that since altering too much would make the Godhead wake up, which would totally destroy the TES Universe.
Achieving CHIM is the first step to Amaranth. However, CHIM is about selfishness. A CHIMster only does something when he really wants it out of personal gain (such as Tiber Septim removing Cyrodiil's Jungle to make his Army more efficient). But Amaranth is about selflessness. An Amaranth sacrifices himself to dream a new dream, and looses all power he had before. The Godhead of a dream doesn't have any power about his own dream.
So, we know that selflessness is the key to Amaranth. The first known Amaranth is Anu.
Again, remember that this was just a really, really rough explanation. You should research this topic yourself, since it's a quite deep and complex concept. I hope I could help.
Also, all of Michael Kirkbride's lore and therefore all of the above is not officially accepted canon and should be treated with some degree of skepticism. Different people accept it to varying degrees.
Cipher3 wrote: Also, all of Michael Kirkbride's lore and therefore all of the above is not officially accepted canon and should be treated with some degree of skepticism. Different people accept it to varying degrees.
......... right, how is "MK's lore" not officially accepted canon?
Cipher3 wrote: Also, all of Michael Kirkbride's lore and therefore all of the above is not officially accepted canon and should be treated with some degree of skepticism. Different people accept it to varying degrees.
......... right, how is "MK's lore" not officially accepted canon?
Correction: Everything that he wrote as part of TES while he worked at Bethesda was canon. He was the main lore creator behind Morrowind, and may have done minor stuff for Oblivion. However, those works on the Imperial Library and stuff like the infamous C0DA and his theories on the nature of the universe as a dream, CHIM, and the Towers are all not officially sanctioned by Bethesda. Nor has Bethesda rejected them. It's up to the player to determine whether they believe that this is correct or not.
everythin he wrote whenever he wasn't working for the company, and hasn't been published can at best be considered "concept fiction" treated the same as concept art. Its worth talking about and considering at times, but it is not the final product or canon.
Cipher3 wrote: Also, all of Michael Kirkbride's lore and therefore all of the above is not officially accepted canon and should be treated with some degree of skepticism. Different people accept it to varying degrees.
......... right, how is "MK's lore" not officially accepted canon?
Because he does not work for Bethesda? this isnt freaking rocket science, if you dont own the franchise you dont own the franchise... Lets say someone worked at lucasfilm for a while, does that make every piece of star wars fanart he made after leaving the company definitive canon?
Sky Above,Voice Within wrote:
Ralok, this is the third thread you flame on. Furthering this kind of behavior can lead to a block over disruptive conduct.
im... im not flaming?
I am not insult, or degrading, or doing anything wrong... I just answered a question with the straight-up truth... I dont even....
how does saying "Its worth talking about and considering at times, but it is not the final product or canon. "
how is that even flaming? I actually was... ugh...
Cipher3 wrote: Also, all of Michael Kirkbride's lore and therefore all of the above is not officially accepted canon and should be treated with some degree of skepticism. Different people accept it to varying degrees.
......... right, how is "MK's lore" not officially accepted canon?
Because he does not work for Bethesda? this isnt freaking rocket science, if you dont own the franchise you dont own the franchise... Lets say someone worked at lucasfilm for a while, does that make every piece of star wars fanart he made after leaving the company definitive canon?
No.... not at all...
Lol thanks... for the "freaking rocket" launched comment. Maybe apparent compulsiveness caused you to overlook the simplicity of my question, based on the simplicity of Cipher3's earlier statement. But fortunately he has already answered quite adequately.
How do you know there aren't pre-written lore pieces that are kept secret and used for writing in multiple perspectives? Books in-game are often bias to varying degrees, I would guess that Bethesda of anyone would know the truth behind their own lore better than anyone, and MK obviously knows a lot about it having been a writer for them, and has worked with other lore writers in Bethesda who have surely exchanged ideas with him. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his works, as some really have helped me in discerning certain truths you could never find in-game. Yet some are questionable, because of their loose basis in-game, and while I don't know if these pieces are canon, they are still fun to read and do not lack in giving me my lore-junkie fix of reading another ES story. :) especially with C0DA. I mean c'mon Bal and Dagoth-Ur cracking jokes in a tunnel of television screens, a dark elf tells off Talos, Kynareth makes him apologize, and Akatosh is a pitiful worm/dragon. What's not to like?
Pelinal Whitestrake wrote: Amaranth is a somewhat complex topic. I'll try to explain it as good as I can, although you can also inform yourself about complex lore topics in the Imperial Library.
So, Amaranth is basicly a person becoming a new Godhead and dreaming his own dream. If you don't know yet, the TES Universe is basicly a "dream" (it's a very realistical dream, though, not just a "normal" dream) of an unconscious entity called the "Godhead", which is sleeping.
The first step to Amaranth is to achieve CHIM. Achieving CHIM requires that a person understands that the World is just a "dream" and that individuality doesn't exist, but that person still has to maintain a personality and has to be able to say "I". Remember, this is a very rough explanation.
So, if a person succeeds in both things, then that person achieves CHIM. A "CHIMster" is basicly like a lucid dreamer inside a dream: he can actively alter the dream through his will. However, most CHIMsters don't do that since altering too much would make the Godhead wake up, which would totally destroy the TES Universe.
Achieving CHIM is the first step to Amaranth. However, CHIM is about selfishness. A CHIMster only does something when he really wants it out of personal gain (such as Tiber Septim removing Cyrodiil's Jungle to make his Army more efficient). But Amaranth is about selflessness. An Amaranth sacrifices himself to dream a new dream, and looses all power he had before. The Godhead of a dream doesn't have any power about his own dream.
So, we know that selflessness is the key to Amaranth. The first known Amaranth is Anu.
Again, remember that this was just a really, really rough explanation. You should research this topic yourself, since it's a quite deep and complex concept. I hope I could help.
Makes me think of Neo in the Matrix. He can alter it to help himself(selfishness) but only after he realises its not real and that hes just a part of a massive forced dream.
'Canon' is a much more subjective concept in TES than other series. Just because something is not specifically written by a Bethesda employee does not mean that the work cannot be considered canon, it is much more ho to the fans what they accept and reject. There is little point in throwing out perfectly good lore to suit a superficial understanding, for such a dogmatic belief. Besides, MK still receives a lot of support from both Bethesda and Zenimax, and has stated that he is not looking for Bethesda's rubber seal of approval (nor does he need it).
But yeah, as well stated by Pelinal, Amaranth is just becoming a new Godhead for a new Dream (the final sub-gradient, a step beyond CHIM). The Loveletter from the Fith Era addresses the topic well, you might want to take a look at it.
This is all very basic western philosophy, actually. CHIM seems very likely to be analogous to Plato's cave (every experiences reality and reality is confined to your surroundings but when you look outside of reality into it, it becomes isometric and you can see everything, with this knowledge you transition seemlessly between the cave and outside and set the pieces as you whim throughout the play as you know the script) and Amaranth is not merely witnessing the cave but creating the cave and allowing it to flow and form.
Also, the game apparently is based of a D&D and if Michael Kirkbride is party to their group then he may be communicating this through none-official channels. It's like saying someone isn't a professor so their theory on physics is irrelevant.
