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  • Thread is getting a little long, opening a new one.

    Previous thread: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:308536

    Latest comment: 

    YinyangElementofduality wrote:
    Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:

    I proved IN-GAME that this urn only apperas IF AND ONLY IF THE PLAYER KILLS SAADIA. This urn doesn't appear if you hand her ovet to Kematu as I proved in 3 playthroughs.

    Actually Saadia's Urn appears in Whiterun's Catacombs if she gets killed. It doesn't have to be the Player. But yes, I can confirm as well that if you hand Saadia over to the Alik'r Warriors, her Urn will not appear. 

    I have a pretty far-fetched theory that Kematu and Saadia had nothing to do with the Thalmor. They only accuse each other of being Traitors to appeal to the Dragonborn as the Redguards are often shown to be more cunning than the Nords and willing to resort to trickery and lies to get what they want. 

    I suspect this is just a Hammerfell's own internal political strife between the Crowns and Forebears. They have been fighting for centuries, even if most of the Crowns and Forebears had reconciled with each other, I believe there'll be a minority who kept fighting against each other in the shadows.

     
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    • If Saadia was the betrayer, she would be in a Dominion controlled city living the high life for helping them take the city during the war.  She wouldn't be using an assumed identity working for next to no money in a tavern in empire controlled territory. 

      I never really thought of the urn as hard evidence, wether or not it appears it's probably just Bethesda being lazy if it does.

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    • from what I gathered, Saadia is probably guilty of something. The Alik'r are specifically looking for her in a land very far away from Hammerfell, and I refuse to believe that Saadia is important enough to the Thalmor that they would send Alik'r mercenaries to track her down at all costs. Plus, she doesn't even have any curved swords. Not even one.

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    • Shadelock wrote:
      If Saadia was the betrayer, she would be in a Dominion controlled city living the high life for helping them take the city during the war.  She wouldn't be using an assumed identity working for next to no money in a tavern in empire controlled territory. 

      I never really thought of the urn as hard evidence, wether or not it appears it's probably just Bethesda being lazy if it does.

      I am actually leaning to believe that Saadia was fleeing from a political intrigue in Hammerfell and the Alik'r Warriors are there to capture her. 

      Both of them were probably not involved directly with the Aldmeri Dominion and they only mentioned the AD to gain the sympathy of the Dragonborn.

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    • If she was a Dominion agent, I would have thought she'd do more to either contact the Dominion or help them out by turning Skyrim against Hammerfell, but neither is shown. Honestly, I don't know what side to truly believe.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:
      If she was a Dominion agent, I would have thought she'd do more to either contact the Dominion or help them out by turning Skyrim against Hammerfell, but neither is shown. Honestly, I don't know what side to truly believe.

      Which is why I came to conclusion that they are both not involved with the Aldmeri Dominion but rather just a political intrigue from Hammerfell where both sides claims the other to be working for the Aldmeri Dominion to gain the Dragonborn's sympathy.

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    • I have allways sided with Kematu since his story sounds the most likely. However in the trivia section on the quest page on wiki it is stated this:

      " If the Alik'r warriors are sided with and Saadia is turned in, her burial urn can be found in Whiterun's Hall of the Dead."

      Im not sure if this is a bug, an error made by bethesda or an actual hint that there are more to the story.

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    • 84.208.243.247 wrote:
      I have allways sided with Kematu since his story sounds the most likely. However in the trivia section on the quest page on wiki it is stated this:

      " If the Alik'r warriors are sided with and Saadia is turned in, her burial urn can be found in Whiterun's Hall of the Dead."

      Im not sure if this is a bug, an error made by bethesda or an actual hint that there are more to the story.

      I can confirm her burial Urn does not appear in Whiterun's Hall of the Dead if you turn Saadia in. Chances is Saadia was killed in your gameplay because I tried three times and her Urn did not appear in Halls of the Dead.

      But any NPC in Whiterun dies (confirmed by killing them in Whiterun) will have their Urn appears in the Halls of the Dead including Saadia. 

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    • I might of noticed something, disregarding both sides and the stories themselves, the game seems to put a lot of focus on taking the coward's route out. THe coward's route is kematu becuase instead of taking the eight warriors head on, you get a potentially inoccent woman captured. And it has you lie to saadia that your own strengh wasn't enough, calling yourself weak as if the game mocks you. So it leads me to wonder, why would the game spit at your foot almost? I wonder...... not to mention it tries as hard as it can to bring the crushing guilt of betraying someone's trush on you

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    • both sides are liars. Saadia claims that the Alik'r want to drag her to hammerfell to be executed by the thalmor, but there are no thalmor in hammerfell. the alik'r claim that they are part of the resistance against the thalmor in hammerfell, but there are no thalmor in hammerfell.

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    • Honestly, considering that its more than likely that a major city was captured in the Hammerfell theatre, when the Aldmeri Dominion couldn't hold onto it, any noble LIKELY wouldn't have been touched as to facilitate a puppet government. At that point, why not plant evidence on anyone who publicly spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion if you happened to already have a leach within the nobles of that city? This could help weaken the houses of Hammerfell if they fell for it, making it seem like not everyone was as gung-ho about kicking mer out of there. If the ruling body of Hammerfell was smart about this information, they would simply hide this and instead just kill all nobles that fled the city in and around it's occupation, and preferably in a shoddy way as to prevent the "Defector" information from being relivant. Make the Alik'r that did the deeds look like it was more fanatical and "out of funds" so you can't say that it was an official order incase one of them happens to be TOO well liked by the people (hensforth the lack of documentation). In this sense, the ruling body would probably PREFER that you kill everyone as to ensure that there was a loop of logic as to the validity of who was the traitor.

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    • Not enough information to determine in such details. 

      The conclusion I can come to is that either they have nothing to do with Aldmeri Dominion, they only mentioned the Thalmor and AD to gain your trust/sympathy.

      Or they are both lying.

      No information whether did Saadia actually caused a major city to be captured except Kematu's one-sided word. Or whether Saadia was part of the Noble who of your mentioned puppet government and that her political rivals planted evidence against her etc...

      All these are going into too much details which has no evidence to support.

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    • I prefer relay To chivaldry than a word of a "mercenary", The exotic girl who serve me Mead And a Plus 0f 250 gold for kill a Lady molestor! Think about is common sence, rather political crap, also if will be related to dominion agents, develpers provably will trow a note or something on her quarters, or even so far as put saadia as enemy when searching for esbern on the rift during blades quest!   p.s. curved swords for a low level player is a nice reward!

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    • 72.50.120.162 wrote: I prefer relay To chivaldry than a word of a "mercenary", The exotic girl who serve me Mead And a Plus 0f 250 gold for kill a Lady molestor! Think about is common sence, rather political crap, also if will be related to dominion agents, develpers provably will trow a note or something on her quarters, or even so far as put saadia as enemy when searching for esbern on the rift during blades quest!   p.s. curved swords for a low level player is a nice reward!

      of course the devs didn't put such a note in her quarters. that would decisively prove that the Alik'r are right, and the whole point of the quest is that either side could be telling the truth. also, the thalmor didn't send all of their agents in skyrim to the ratway when searching for esbern

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    • It's drama.  I don't do drama.  They both have to go, either by foot or by sword.

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    • Well, i always sided with Kematu, never with Saadia. I always think she was lying, and i don't wanted to be tricked by a "pretty face" (I mean she is a looked harmless woman who are running of a complete band of niggas with CURVED SWORDS). I think that the aldmeri dominion with their arrogance that is common in her kind and very most in the thalmors, never could hired Alik Warriors Mercenaries of Hammerfell, knowing that Hammerfell  is one of their most hated enemies, being that they are indenpendent of the thalmors, since the people of hammerfell kicked them when the empire surrounded Hammerfell to the Aldmeri, abandoning the people of Hammerfell. Besides, for what i see, all the assasins not thalmors that the aldmeri dominion hired are Khajits (that one who wanted to kill Malborn in windheld if he survived the infiltration, and that woman khajit that wants to kill the Dragonborn when is in search of Esbern). I think that i going to side with Saadia now in all my games party, now that i read the comments of others... really, is very probably that the both are lying, and no ones is afiliated with the thalmors. Besides i always haved a think that anoyeed me when i always sided with Kematu: Whatever thing that Saadia really do, she left that in the past, now she is free in whiterun and Kematu wanted to take that. Really, i going to side with Saadia since now. And... i recently have a needed of collected Kematu for my Dead Thralls collection XD. In my next game party with a Vampire Nord, that will be. 

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    • 186.93.186.52 wrote:
      Well, i always sided with Kematu, never with Saadia. I always think she was lying, and i don't wanted to be tricked by a "pretty face" (I mean she is a looked harmless woman who are running of a complete band of niggas with CURVED SWORDS). I think that the aldmeri dominion with their arrogance that is common in her kind and very most in the thalmors, never could hired Alik Warriors Mercenaries of Hammerfell, knowing that Hammerfell  is one of their most hated enemies, being that they are indenpendent of the thalmors, since the people of hammerfell kicked them when the empire surrounded Hammerfell to the Aldmeri, abandoning the people of Hammerfell. Besides, for what i see, all the assasins not thalmors that the aldmeri dominion hired are Khajits (that one who wanted to kill Malborn in windheld if he survived the infiltration, and that woman khajit that wants to kill the Dragonborn when is in search of Esbern). I think that i going to side with Saadia now in all my games party, now that i read the comments of others... really, is very probably that the both are lying, and no ones is afiliated with the thalmors. Besides i always haved a think that anoyeed me when i always sided with Kematu: Whatever thing that Saadia really do, she left that in the past, now she is free in whiterun and Kematu wanted to take that. Really, i going to side with Saadia since now. And... i recently have a needed of collected Kematu for my Dead Thralls collection XD. In my next game party with a Vampire Nord, that will be. 

      Of course, just because she (Theoretically.) Left whatever she did in the past, that doesn't mean she isn't still (Potentially.) guilty of whatever she did.

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    • I killed them both. Skyrim belongs to the Nords. Get out of my swamp.

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    • 108.172.247.127 wrote:
      I killed them both. Skyrim belongs to the Nords. Get out of my swamp.

      50-50 chance either are working for the Ald Dom. Not worth the risk to let either of them live. Build a wall and make Hammerfell pay for it.

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    • 50-50 chance either are working for the Ald Dom. Not worth the risk to let either of them live. Build a wall and make Hammerfell pay for it

      Best not to try to do something beyond the boundaries of the Nords' abilities.The Redguards are too smart for the Nords, chances is the Nords try that and ends up paying for all of Hammerfell's bills.

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    • ZhugeQuanqiang wrote:

      50-50 chance either are working for the Ald Dom. Not worth the risk to let either of them live. Build a wall and make Hammerfell pay for it

      Best not to try to do something beyond the boundaries of the Nords' abilities.The Redguards are too smart for the Nords, chances is the Nords try that and ends up paying for all of Hammerfell's bills.

      Racist. Just because they are redguards you think that they are smarter than nords. Remember the Greybeards are wise and they are nords. 

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    • 71.10.151.88 wrote:
      ZhugeQuanqiang wrote:

      50-50 chance either are working for the Ald Dom. Not worth the risk to let either of them live. Build a wall and make Hammerfell pay for it

      Best not to try to do something beyond the boundaries of the Nords' abilities.The Redguards are too smart for the Nords, chances is the Nords try that and ends up paying for all of Hammerfell's bills.
      Racist. Just because they are redguards you think that they are smarter than nords. Remember the Greybeards are wise and they are nords. 

      That is not racist, that is an established fact that the Redguards are superior than Altmers, Dunmer, Bosmers, Argonians and Khajits, it is also an established fact that Altmer, Dunmers, Bosmers and Khajiits are superior than the Imperials, while it is an established fact that the Imperials are superior than the Nords.

      Meaning the Redguards >>> Nords by no small amount.

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    • ZhugeQuanqiang wrote:

      71.10.151.88 wrote:
      ZhugeQuanqiang wrote:

      50-50 chance either are working for the Ald Dom. Not worth the risk to let either of them live. Build a wall and make Hammerfell pay for it

      Best not to try to do something beyond the boundaries of the Nords' abilities.The Redguards are too smart for the Nords, chances is the Nords try that and ends up paying for all of Hammerfell's bills.
      Racist. Just because they are redguards you think that they are smarter than nords. Remember the Greybeards are wise and they are nords. 

      That is not racist, that is an established fact that the Redguards are superior than Altmers, Dunmer, Bosmers, Argonians and Khajits, it is also an established fact that Altmer, Dunmers, Bosmers and Khajiits are superior than the Imperials, while it is an established fact that the Imperials are superior than the Nords.

      Meaning the Redguards >>> Nords by no small amount.

      care to provide a source that proves this?

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    • The Beautiful Princess Ashley wrote:

      That is not racist, that is an established fact that the Redguards are superior than Altmers, Dunmer, Bosmers, Argonians and Khajits, it is also an established fact that Altmer, Dunmers, Bosmers and Khajiits are superior than the Imperials, while it is an established fact that the Imperials are superior than the Nords.

      Meaning the Redguards >>> Nords by no small amount.

      care to provide a source that proves this?

      If it isn't obvious enough I was trolling.

      On a slightly more serious note. The Redguards do have a better track record than the Nords as a whole. Plus if it really bugs you so much...

      Weaponry: Redguards and Nords have special culture weapons. Redguards have racial Orichalc weapons, Nords have Nordic Weapons. Redguards gets an edge because they have Gunpowder weapons proven in TES Adventures: Redguard. 

      Special magic: Nords have Thu'um, Redguards have Shehai. At the end of 1st Era, Nords were punished by divine retribution as they abuse the great power Thu'um gave them without any shame. Nords no longer use the Thu'um outside religious purpose. Redguards no such problem because they are wiser as a whole and not just specific/exceptional groups like the Greybeards since the Redguards knew to hold their swords/shehai after they fulfill real needs.

      Situation: At the present, Nords in Skyrim are divide into Stormcloaks and Imperials by the Civil War. Hammerfell has become united as one during the Great War. Even though Hammerfell suffered heavy losses, Redguards as a race is more united and Hammerfell is more politically stable than Skyrim. Hell, Hammerfell as a whole ties with Cyrodiil as the two most stable human states in Tamriel the other being Cyrodiil. High Rock is divided into 5 Kingdoms, Skyrim divided into 2, Orsinium or Orcs has never been able to form an effective kingdom.

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    • If you look up the history of Taneth, you will find that Kematu is the one that is telling the truth.

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    • I like to think that both of the parties are telling the truth. Saadia might be innocent as she says, and those trying to find her, might have been told a lie that they think is the truth. In life this happens a lot.

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    • Or both sides have twisted some parts of the truth so it stay true but to their own convenience. Happens even more often in rl.

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    • saadia's story has too many holes to be true. she didn't know the alik'r were in the city, but she did know that one of them was caught while they were getting into the city.

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    • Found out Saadia was lying, if you search up the City that Kematu mentions it will say in it's 4th era description: "When Hammerfell was fighting against the Aldmeri Dominion in the beginning of the fourth era, the city of Taneth fell to the Dominion after supposedly being betrayed from within. The Alik'r were hired to find the traitor who apparently fled to Whiterun.[5]"

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    • 80.61.49.121 wrote: Found out Saadia was lying, if you search up the City that Kematu mentions it will say in it's 4th era description: "When Hammerfell was fighting against the Aldmeri Dominion in the beginning of the fourth era, the city of Taneth fell to the Dominion after supposedly being betrayed from within. The Alik'r were hired to find the traitor who apparently fled to Whiterun.[5]"

      a wikia article does not count as evidence

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    • Just some facts to consider.

      1. No one knows you are dragonborn.

      2. Eight mercenaries and Kematu have the drop on you.

      3. Instead of attack when having numbers, higher ground, the element of surpise.. they want to talk?

      4. Perhaps because they think you know where Saadia is.

      5. Only real conclusion is Saadia wants you to kill eight men, and they want her alive.

      I usually side with whoever doesn't want me to kill people if I can because that's more good. If they were going to kill her even if there was a 50% chance she's guilty, I'd like side with her because its unfair and she's outnumbered.

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    • Is no-one going to bring up the fact that the enemies that you will need to kill or sneak by are labeled 'bandit [varient]'?

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    • 72.228.85.164 wrote:
      Is no-one going to bring up the fact that the enemies that you will need to kill or sneak by are labeled 'bandit [varient]'?

      I believed it was addressed. Kematu and the Alik'r Warriors choose to "employ" the bandits because they wanted to use their hideout as a base.

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    • Screw it, i'll just kill them both,

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    • Now the problem with this is that the Thalmor are involved. Most TES fans have only played Skyrim and possibly one other game in the series. I have played all twelve games and think of myself as unbiased unlike people who have only played Skyrim or Legends in which the Third Aldmeri Dominion are painted in a bad light. I highly recommend finding out more about the Thalmor and the Third Aldmeri Dominion (TAD) before judging them.

      The Ra Gada or Redguards or Yokudans arrived on the West Coast of Tamriel in Volenfell (later renamed Hammerfell) around 1E 792 to 1E 808. They later split into two political groups, The Crowns who are more traditional and worship the Yokudan pantheon and The Forebears who more readily accept the cultures and gods of other races. After many years (in which they were only conquered once by Tiber Septim in the events of The Elder Scrolls Adventures : Redguard  and even then he needed the help of Dram and Nafaalilargus and the betrayal of the Forebears) they were faced with yet another conflict, The Great War. The Crowns and Forebears formed a truce and worked together to hold off the TAD. Ten years after the White-Gold Concordat the Redguards were still fighting.

      With that in mind, how do you feel about Saadia who sold out her city, Taneth and people in return for some money. This caused the deaths of many people including children and allowed the TAD to get a better foothold in Hammerfell. When the deal went bad and she was forced to flee to Skyrim where she changed her name from Iman to Saadia and is prepared to pull a knife on you and threaten you just to live another day.

      Btw the best way to do this quest if you want the most gold is to sell her to Kematu and take the 500 gold then kill Kematu and take 250 from his corpse as well as some rare scimitars and Alik'r clothes. Saadia should not be hostile and now available for marriage.

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    • 86.141.8.93 wrote: With that in mind, how do you feel about Saadia who sold out her city, Taneth and people in return for some money. This caused the deaths of many people including children and allowed the TAD to get a better foothold in Hammerfell. When the deal went bad and she was forced to flee to Skyrim where she changed her name from Iman to Saadia and is prepared to pull a knife on you and threaten you just to live another day.

      Btw the best way to do this quest if you want the most gold is to sell her to Kematu and take the 500 gold then kill Kematu and take 250 from his corpse as well as some rare scimitars and Alik'r clothes. Saadia should not be hostile and now available for marriage.

      the thing is, either Saadia or Kematu might be telling thr truth. if kematu's story is true, then yes, she deserves to be put to death, but if Saadia is telling the truth, it's clearly best to help her.

      also, Saadia is never available for marriage

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    • Yeah, really interesting tale of the further history of Hammerfell and the Redguards, but your last bit made no sense. The whole idea of this is 'who is telling the truth' and as usual, Bethesda have left it purposefully vague who might be telling the truth, and given their habit of making history vague so you can pretend your version of previous characters are the real ones in your playthrough (for instance the ledger of Thirst Mead Hall in Solstheim being damaged so the time around the Nerevarine having had the chance to lead is illegible), if they even bother to think about this largely inconsequential side quest when (and if) they give us ES6, they'll probably again leave it vague. As the previous guy said, whoever' telling the truth it makes sense to help them, but the point is we don't know for sure who is telling the truth, or even if either are.

      Also, the best money to be made from it is actually from selling Saadia out, getting the 500 from Kematu, killing him, looting the 250 off his body, then casting calm on Saadia, as she will be hostile when she comes out of paralysis if you too Kematu's payment, and getting the 500 from there. Then, if you leave it long enough I think she'll be willing to see you again without trying to kill you, but I'm not certain of that. Also, Saadia is never a candidate for marriage.

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    • None of you have mentioned that the Alik'r prisoner you talk to says that if you know anything about Kematu you know you won't leave the hideout alive. That sounds pretty ominous to me, you don't get a reputation like that by being a chill guy.

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    • That's Hammerfell job, I'm dragonborn in Skyrim, so I do my job for people who live in Skyrim.

      Saadia now is living in Whiterun, in a bard, and have a peaceful job. So, I help her, I don't know how guilty she is, well, the game don't give me much detail about it, so, what's the point try to guess it? Yeah, I'm stupid, so, I side with Saadia.

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    • saadia is a liar if you think otherwise you are easly deceived

      being chased by speaking aagainst the dominion in hammerfell when hammerfell is againt the dominion?

      no this isnt just a small detail and no it doesnt matter if you find her urn cause she was a traitor its abvious she would get executed

      accept the truth

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    • Ye Kematu is definitely telling the truth, most people side with Saadia cause she is female and most find her hot. I bet if Saadia was a male people would take Kematus side without hesitation. The only thing I hate is you have to lie to help Kematu. But the morally GOOD choice is definitely helping Kematu, murdering 8 alikir for smicitars is also not the right choice...

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    • This whole debate is debate is very interesting.  It reminds me of that episode of Rick and Morty where Rick sells a specialized weapon to the assassin to kill a specific target (the gaseous mind reading being)...Morty finds this morally unaccpetable and takes it upon himself to prevent the assassination; a reluctant Rick (eventually) decided to assist Morty with this task to ensure his grandson's safety.  Their quest to save the gaseous alien results in a massive chase that results in chaos and great loss of innocent life. When they finally succede in getting the alien to safety, the alien explains to Morty that upon returning home to his native galaxy, he plans return  to the milky way with the rest of his kind so they can wipe out all solid life forms. (Morty, then waits until the alien lets his guard down, then kills him with the weapon that Rick initally sold to the assassin.

      I think my point speaks for itself.

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    • It's actually quite amazing that this debate is going on while the game is already this old. I recently started playing with the Special Edition and got to this quest. Actually, I can't make sense of it and I think it's just a case of sloppy writing, for reasons as:

      1) Kematu talks about a city being betrayed to the Dominion. But military operations in Hammerfell ended 20-odd years before the game. Saadia can't be more than 30, max 35 years old. Did she sell the city to the Thalmor as a child? The same applies about the dissident theory. Would really the Thalmor single out a child and persecute her for twenty years for something as widespread as opposition in an occupied city? When that weird priest is badmouthing them all the time in the center of the city?

      2) If Saadia was a Thalmor agent, she could have sought for better places to be protected. Even if the Elves didn't want to shelter her in Alinor, one of the Elsweyr client kingdoms or Cyrodiil would have been better than war-torn Skyrim. If she was an anti-Thalmor voice, then fleeing from Hammerfell wouldn't have make sense. It's not like partisans fleed their countries AFTER the nazis had left. 

      3) Thalmor wouldn't need to employ Redguard mercenaries to hunt down a tavern maid, when they are able to drag people out of their homes at night. 

      4) The prisoner describes Kematu as a guy willing to kill just to maintain cover, but he seems nice and willing to negotiate with the very person having discovered his hideout. On the other hand, he has no official note, no ring, no seal to prove his affiliation. As far as the DB knows, nothing even proves he's a true Alik'r.  

      I just think BethSoft messed up with the timeline and didn't think out the quest properly. Or, if we want an in-universe explanation, it's quite problable that neither side is telling the thruth, and they are bringing about Thalmor references just to mud the waters. It seems like a matter of Hammerfellian political intrigue to me, but we have no way to investigate the thing. But even this theory, which I think is the most likely, conflict with the involvment of Thalmor in the aftermath. So maybe they *are* somewhat involved, but not in the way Saadia and Kematu think. 

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    • she pulled a knife on me, she dies

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    • Who cares? I get to butcher filthy redguards, the worst race in TES. The only negative to this quest is you can't kill more. A DLC to burn Hammerfell to the ground would have been great. Side with her, you get to kill more Sand-people.

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    • I understand both sides, but for me, the poor kahjit's stolen moon amulet was in their room, and they were in a cave full of bandits. If Saadia was a noble who sold out her whole city, I think she'd have a bit more then living above a bar being a waitress, even if she fled. If she was telling the truth, some sell swords who aren't into doing much work themselves seems to fit. 

      Either way, they both want you to do their dirty work and aren;t giving you the full story. But I DO like those scimtars and I have empty weapon racks on my wall

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    • 81.100.29.243 wrote:
      Who cares? I get to butcher filthy redguards, the worst race in TES. The only negative to this quest is you can't kill more. A DLC to burn Hammerfell to the ground would have been great. Side with her, you get to kill more Sand-people.

      Racist thalmor-supporting scum.

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    • I help the Alik'r as she always bothers me when im cooking and the holes in her story me hating the Thalmore (All hail Ulfric Stormcloak) and the Alik'r are bosses even sneaking and I was called out befor I could even see THEM and I was a Khajiit but she felt untrustworthy and I did the quest late game on my first as I tryed to find her and did not check the inn so I killed Alduin and she pulls out a dagger on ME, she is cleary insane.

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    • 81.100.29.243 wrote:

      Who cares? I get to butcher filthy redguards, the worst race in TES. The only negative to this quest is you can't kill more. A DLC to burn Hammerfell to the ground would have been great. Side with her, you get to kill more Sand-people.

      lol what did the redguards do? theyve only ever done good, really. they told the thalmor to fuck right off outta their province, and they have curved swords. curved. swords. and cool clothes. theyre just overall good guys.

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    • I always find this quest funny because I don't get around to bothering with it until late game, if I even bother with it at all.

      As with all ES games, I spend a fair amount of my early game making and enchanting iron daggers. This levels you pretty quickly, but the enchantments, gold, and weapons it gives you access to balances things out.

      Just gathering the resources to do it will grant you enough experience to still handle the enemies once you can enchant a Blade of Finger of God, Bow of Massive Killitude, and Ha, That Enchanted Daedric Sword Tickles Armor of Regen Health, Magica, and Stamina. I also tend to grind Stealth, which helps.

      Also, I think I've played Skyrim without Mods all of once, and I vastly prefer mods that make things harder and add things to the game as opposed to cheat mods. The game is already too broken in your favor for cheats to be all that useful as anything but a way to skip some grinding. In which case, why play an ES game?

      Whatever floats your boat and all that, but I like grinding my way to legitimate Godhood before venturing forth on my quest to steal every Sweetroll in whatever part of Tamriel I'm currently playing in, hoarding every bottle of liquor in the land, building my collection of expensive plates, cabbages, and cheese wheels, sneaking copies of The Lusty Argonian Maid in married men's pockets and giggling about it, seeing how much stuff I can make Lydia carry before she breaks,  stealing the clothes from every resident of every town, making orgy scenes by posing the naked and dismembered bodies of my victims, shouting things off of high places,  keeping Sofia drunk as much as possible, and occasionally killing dragons for fun and profit, mostly fun.

      Anyway, I follow Saadia up the stairs wearing stupidly overpowered enchanted Daedric armor, with an arsenal of stupidly overpowered Daedric weapons, and she pulls an iron dagger on me in a bar maid outfit. That's cute.

      Saadia is a liar, probably a bigger one that the Redguards that are after her. I usually just decide on a whim to be honest. Lore backs up the Redguards story as more true than hers, but doesn't fully support either.

      Sometimes I kill both, though I usually help Saadia. It mostly comes down to how not lazy I'm feeling. Killing the Redguards is pretty much the easier option by that point and requires less running around to complete the quest and get it off my list.

      Plus, I usually don't want to deal with my Dragonborn pretending to be weak for some scam. I've played through as male and female and either way my character is never the type to put up with lying about losing a fight. They might lie to swindle you out of money or goods, but aren't about to pretend to be weak for anyone.

      If I bother with going against her I just kill her. Chances are I'm in the Dark Brotherhood anyway. I just look at it as another job for them. By that point it's not like the gold is really worth the effort.

      At any rate, she might have done something wrong, but selling out Hammerfell to the Elves doesn't jive with the lore. It's probably some political crime or something of that nature, but the lore just doesn't support what she's accused of. I doubt either side has anything to do with the Dominion. Both are trying to use me.

      I really do wish there were better dialogue options in Bethesda games that don't make your character out to be an ingorant and gullible rube who is new to everything in the world and needs everything explained to them as if they just dropped from the sky and don't know basic things about how things work.

      It's especially bad if you're running one or more of the faction organizations and still get treated like a moron who knows nothing about things related to them. I'm the Archmage and likely the most powerful  and prolific magic user that isn't a Daedric Prince in all of Tamriel, but yes, please tell me about the basics of novice spell casting random NPC.

      Fully voiced games were a step back in regard to dialogue options for games like this. It severely limits the system and as a result ends up treating your character like an idiot who knows nothing. That sort of thing should be there for new players, but there should also be more advance "Do you know who the &$^# I am? I am Lord Dinglehopper-Shmidt the IIIrd, the greatest master of this %*&^ing subject in this age!" or "Who the $&%# doesn't kow what a Daedric Prince is?" dialogue options.

      At any rate, both are lying. Saadia probably is a wanted criminal, but probably not for the crime you're told she's guilty of.  I usually side with her anyway, but only because it's less running around. Also, she brings me mead and sometimes sweetrolls.

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    • Contrabardus wrote:
      I always find this quest funny because I don't get around to bothering with it until late game, if I even bother with it at all.

      As with all ES games, I spend a fair amount of my early game making and enchanting iron daggers. This levels you pretty quickly, but the enchantments, gold, and weapons it gives you access to balances things out.

      Just gathering the resources to do it will grant you enough experience to still handle the enemies once you can enchant a Blade of Finger of God, Bow of Massive Killitude, and Ha, That Enchanted Daedric Sword Tickles Armor of Regen Health, Magica, and Stamina. I also tend to grind Stealth, which helps.

      Also, I think I've played Skyrim without Mods all of once, and I vastly prefer mods that make things harder and add things to the game as opposed to cheat mods. The game is already too broken in your favor for cheats to be all that useful as anything but a way to skip some grinding. In which case, why play an ES game?

      Whatever floats your boat and all that, but I like grinding my way to legitimate Godhood before venturing forth on my quest to steal every Sweetroll in whatever part of Tamriel I'm currently playing in, hoarding every bottle of liquor in the land, building my collection of expensive plates, cabbages, and cheese wheels, sneaking copies of The Lusty Argonian Maid in married men's pockets and giggling about it, seeing how much stuff I can make Lydia carry before she breaks,  stealing the clothes from every resident of every town, making orgy scenes by posing the naked and dismembered bodies of my victims, shouting things off of high places,  keeping Sofia drunk as much as possible, and occasionally killing dragons for fun and profit, mostly fun.

      Anyway, I follow Saadia up the stairs wearing stupidly overpowered enchanted Daedric armor, with an arsenal of stupidly overpowered Daedric weapons, and she pulls an iron dagger on me in a bar maid outfit. That's cute.

      Saadia is a liar, probably a bigger one that the Redguards that are after her. I usually just decide on a whim to be honest. Lore backs up the Redguards story as more true than hers, but doesn't fully support either.

      Sometimes I kill both, though I usually help Saadia. It mostly comes down to how not lazy I'm feeling. Killing the Redguards is pretty much the easier option by that point and requires less running around to complete the quest and get it off my list.

      Plus, I usually don't want to deal with my Dragonborn pretending to be weak for some scam. I've played through as male and female and either way my character is never the type to put up with lying about losing a fight. They might lie to swindle you out of money or goods, but aren't about to pretend to be weak for anyone.

      If I bother with going against her I just kill her. Chances are I'm in the Dark Brotherhood anyway. I just look at it as another job for them. By that point it's not like the gold is really worth the effort.

      At any rate, she might have done something wrong, but selling out Hammerfell to the Elves doesn't jive with the lore. It's probably some political crime or something of that nature, but the lore just doesn't support what she's accused of. I doubt either side has anything to do with the Dominion. Both are trying to use me.

      I really do wish there were better dialogue options in Bethesda games that don't make your character out to be an ingorant and gullible rube who is new to everything in the world and needs everything explained to them as if they just dropped from the sky and don't know basic things about how things work.

      It's especially bad if you're running one or more of the faction organizations and still get treated like a moron who knows nothing about things related to them. I'm the Archmage and likely the most powerful  and prolific magic user that isn't a Daedric Prince in all of Tamriel, but yes, please tell me about the basics of novice spell casting random NPC.

      Fully voiced games were a step back in regard to dialogue options for games like this. It severely limits the system and as a result ends up treating your character like an idiot who knows nothing. That sort of thing should be there for new players, but there should also be more advance "Do you know who the &$^# I am? I am Lord Dinglehopper-Shmidt the IIIrd, the greatest master of this %*&^ing subject in this age!" or "Who the $&%# doesn't kow what a Daedric Prince is?" dialogue options.

      At any rate, both are lying. Saadia probably is a wanted criminal, but probably not for the crime you're told she's guilty of.  I usually side with her anyway, but only because it's less running around. Also, she brings me mead and sometimes sweetrolls.

      The redguards are actually telling the truth. They've been at war with those filthy men-hating yellow-skinned elves who thinks they are better than all the other races. That is some lore-supporting fact right there. What other things does Saadia have to back that up?, Nothing. Also keep in mind that the very first conversation she did was pull a dagger out and she attempted to threaten you during the very first conversation furtherly supported by her hesitant tone. Kematu on the other hand, talked in a calm manner and doesn't attack you on-sight unless you started it first. It is indeed clear that she is a thalmor-spy,  All you have to do is snitch on her by teleporting to Rorikstead (If you already visited the place) and talk to those ali'kir warriors and BAM! That is the very first short-way to deal with questline.

      If i wanted sweet-rolls and ale, Then i'll ask a bartender for that. Than have it served by someone who supports the Egomaniacs.

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    • The Beautiful Princess Ashley wrote:

      80.61.49.121 wrote: Found out Saadia was lying, if you search up the City that Kematu mentions it will say in it's 4th era description: "When Hammerfell was fighting against the Aldmeri Dominion in the beginning of the fourth era, the city of Taneth fell to the Dominion after supposedly being betrayed from within. The Alik'r were hired to find the traitor who apparently fled to Whiterun.[5]"

      a wikia article does not count as evidence ​​​​​​

      Said wikia article also only has Kematu as the source

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    • I think this is just another sarcastic quest that the player is asked to do their dirty work, so there isn't much to debate in that respect. And for game wise reason I prefer just leaving the two Alik'r warriors there so that they can help defend the city against vampire attack, dragon attack etc which may result in unwanted death of NPCs such as Adrianne. The guards in Whiterun are all lazy you know.

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    • wikia articles are evidences not proofs

      but they  are evidences

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    • the real question is why do people still even care

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    • Allright lets do this from both sides. First lets assume that Saadia betrayed her city. Nobles would send some badass mercenaries - sure. Would Thalmor help her? After losing the city they wouldn't care for some turncoat. They wouldn't protect her. She would be on her own and forced to use her liquid assets to run away. However if noble families were to send mercenaries, wouldn't they give them some kind of iron letter? If everyone was sure that Saadia is a traitor then yes, they would. But if that is still a matter of debate, then sending mercenaries is more plausible. Now lets assume that Saadia tells the truth and Thalmor did send merceneries after her. Mercenaries make reports which means that the Thalmor would know about Saadia being in Skyrim. Even if mercenaries tried to hide that fact, Thalmor would realise that their mercenaries are within Skyrim, added two to two and came to conclusion that one of their enemies is in Skyrim. Does that mean that Saadia's name would wind up in Thalmor documents at embassy? Not really. There are only dossiers of major players and dangerous agents like Delphine, Esbert and Ulfric. Besides seaking against conquerors after they are driven off is not a reason enough to waste money on mercenaries. And the third option: none of them is telling the truth. Why send mercenaries? Why waste money on someone who left your sphere of influence and obviously no longer poses a threat? Vengeance? The need to prove sth with a public execution? Maybe she knows sth that she shouldn't and needs to be killed just in case? If it was about silencing her, then Kematu wouldn't mind if Dragonborn killed her. On the other hand he could just as well fake his reaction. I come to the conlclusion that we can't be certain of anything. Anything - except of the outcome of our actions. From a moral point of view we have to decide whether to kill one person or eight. If we kill the mercenaries, more may come and more will die. If we kill/handle over Saadia then only one person dies. Or maybe not? What if during her public execution she becomes a martyr and new evidence comes to light about her innocence? That could spark a new confilct within Redguard nobility that would bring more death. One of them may lie. Both of them may lie. And even none of them may lie. We have no evidence - only testimonies of two oposing sides. We can't be certain of anything, even the outcome of our actions.

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    • First off, just wanted to say that it's super interesting how this debate is still going on! There's no doubt that Bethesda left this quest intentionally vague, but maybe it's a good thing - it made an otherwise unremarkable quest go down in Skyrim history.

      From the perspective of who is more likely to be the most honest, I side with Kematu.

      Saadia clearly has something to hide. You don't pretend to be defenceless, lead someone to your room, and then pull a dagger on them. Because this is a video game where the player character will obviously be OP, she doesn't pose much of a threat; but if that happened in real life, she would be serious about killing you then and there. If she's willing to kill a stranger just for mentioning the Alik'r, what else might she be willing to do?

      Also, as others have said: she says she doesn't know the Alik'r were close, yet she knows one of them is in the Whiterun prison? A lie as clear as day.

      Hammerfell is publicly opposed to the Aldmeri. A noble of Hammerfell would not be forced to flee her homeland for speaking out against a public enemy of that land. The only reason she would flee is if she betrayed her own people. Not to mention she's being pursued by her own people as well. If the Aldmeri really did want her dead, it would be the Thalmor after her--and if the Thalmor were really after her, the Bannered Mare is not going to be nearly enough to stop them.

      If you go to the Swindler's Den and make it to Kematu, he wants to talk. He's even willing to forgive you for killing some of his own men. He also predicts the fake name that Saadia uses (it's reasonable to believe that he hasn't personally come into contact with Saadia yet and wouldn't have heard her use that name, otherwise he would have captured her already), so he knew Saadia on a personal level at one point. All this indicates that bringing her back ALIVE is his top priority. It isn't just a matter of vengeance or tying up loose ends; it's a matter of pride and honour.

      If you lie to Saadia, bring her to the stable, and kill her before Kematu can paralyze her, he says this: "All that effort, and you just kill her. You've ruined everything." 

      To top all this off, there is a book in the game which states that there is a Redguard traitor hiding in Whiterun. Bethesda took the time to write and implement hundreds of books, and each and every one serves a purpose.

      At the end of the day, you've got someone who's willing to kill you for saying something, and someone who's willing to talk to you after you slaughter their companions. Also, there are many people arguing for Kematu and many arguing for both sides being manipulative liars. But very few directly support Saadia...

      So whether you look at their individual behaviour or use logic to put the facts together, it is what it is.

      (And for the people saying that it's more NPCs asking you to do their dirty work, that's kind of what the game is about. That's how quests work. If nobody gave you anything to do, it would make a very boring game.)

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    • The main reason I always side with Saadia is so that she can keep helping out in the Bannered Mare cause Hulda deserves a break. In addition, Hulda considers handing over the inn to Saadia so she can retire. Who am I to keep an innkeeper from their hard-earned retirement?

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    • When you think about the state of Tamriel during Skyrim's civil war, several of the "holes" start to make sense when looked at from a written point of view, regardless of how well the game portrays them.

      Saadia hides in a war-torn country probably because in all the chaos it may prove quite difficult to find her, and her pursuers may get caught up in the fighting and die or decide it isn't worth the risk. 

      She chose to hide in Whiterun as at the start of the game it is the only city in Skyrim which holds a neutral stand-point in relation to the civil war (although the Jarl is leaning towards supporting the Empire and the Thalmor by default, but this isn't really relevant). This could be in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion of a newcoming arriving into a faction city and being subjected to questioning. 

      The Dominion would not openly support a foreign advocate in such a situation. Doing so might lead to the resuming of hostilities with the only country who successfully resisted them, and is not so heavily influenced by them compared to provinces such as Skyrim and Cyrodiil. They clearly would rather focus their efforts on taking over the weaker parts of Tamriel before entering such a fight.

      If the Thalmor did protect her, it would give creedance to the Ali'Kir claims that she was a thalmor associate. They also might view her as nothing more than a pawn in their long game, not worth the effort to protect, which is why she's alone.

      Maybe the Thalmor want her dead too, to keep her silent. That would have been a cool detail, and it would explain why she would be reluctant to trust the Dragonborn initially.

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    • 92.238.159.169 wrote:

      ...Maybe the Thalmor want her dead too, to keep her silent. That would have been a cool detail, and it would explain why she would be reluctant to trust the Dragonborn initially.

      i actually think this is a good assumption, a theory that saadia is hiding from bth sides, veery interesting! (the rest is pretty good too, i just wanted to talk about this part)

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    • For me, I killed Kematu because first there's no way in hell that a proper legitimate military personel would rely on petty bandits... And lastly because he and his men are nothing but a bunch of coward saracen dogs who would rely even on useless bandits just for protection... I mean, what are they even afraid of?

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    • Reaper666th wrote:
      For me, I killed Kematu because first there's no way in hell that a proper legitimate military personel would rely on petty bandits... And lastly because he and his men are nothing but a bunch of coward saracen dogs who would rely even on useless bandits just for protection... I mean, what are they even afraid of?

      Kematu never wanted to kill you at all. Saadia is the one who pulled a dagger against you and attempted to threaten your life. You sided with the manipulative liar.

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    • are you saying if somebody strolled into town and asked about soldiers looking for you, you wouldnt be cautious?

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    • I always side with Saadia on this one. I don't think she's telling the truth, but I don't believe Kematu is telling the truth either. Since her guilt can't be proven, I'm not comfortable turning her over to a band of mercenaries wielding curved swords (hell, I wouldn't hand over Nazeem without some damn evidence, and he's...you know...Nazeem). Also, I'm Thane of Whiterun and she's a resident of my city, so I feel honorbound to protect her. Whatever the intrigues of Hammerfell, they really don't concern me. I'm not wild about chopping down Kematu's crew from a moral standpoint, however, by the time I get there I have no choice but to betray a woman with no actual evidence against her or fight for my own skin, so down they go.

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    • 75.97.239.173 wrote:
      I always side with Saadia on this one. I don't think she's telling the truth, but I don't believe Kematu is telling the truth either. Since her guilt can't be proven, I'm not comfortable turning her over to a band of mercenaries wielding curved swords (hell, I wouldn't hand over Nazeem without some damn evidence, and he's...you know...Nazeem). Also, I'm Thane of Whiterun and she's a resident of my city, so I feel honorbound to protect her. Whatever the intrigues of Hammerfell, they really don't concern me. I'm not wild about chopping down Kematu's crew from a moral standpoint, however, by the time I get there I have no choice but to betray a woman with no actual evidence against her or fight for my own skin, so down they go.

      So you have no problem killing eight men who might just as well be innocent and telling the truth and are just doing their job trying to bring a traitor to justice? All because of one pretty face?

      At the end of the day, the facts are:

      1. We DON'T know for sure if Kematu is lying, he might be lying or he might be telling the truth. 2. We DO know for sure that Saadia is lying because she claims she's wanted for speaking against the dominion in hammerfell but hammerfell is actually against the dominion. 3. Saadia wants Kematu and his crew dead. 4. Kematu and his crew don't want Saadia dead and want her alive instead.

      So on one hand you have a proven liar who wants you to slaughter eight men without any question versus a group of people who want to arrest someone and take them alive without any bloodshed AND wanted to talk things through even when they clearly outnumbered you and had the chance to kill you.

      If it weren't for the whole damsel in distress thing, it would be pretty clear that the best option is to side with the Alik'r since that's the path with the least bloodshed. Even if we don't know if Kematu is telling the truth we know for sure that Saadia is lying, so even if she's not guilty of what Kematu claims she's still guilty of something since she wouldn't try to hide it and lie to you otherwise.

      I'd rather not take the lives of eight men, who I have no proof of that they're lying, by listening to someone who I actually know for a fact that she's lying.

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    • My Dragonborn is an Orc.  Bardoc the Bruiser.  Bardoc doesn't like that they dragged him into their politics.  He leads Saadia to the stables and once Kematu pays him he piledriver kills Kematu and loots his body.  When Saadia wakes up and attacks him he beheads her and loots her body (no bounty gained). He then goes back to the cave, kills all the Alik'r and loots their bodies and the entire cave.  He heads straight to Whiterun, sells all loot for seps, and throws a cut to his housecarl because she cracks many skulls in his name. 

      On the road he goads all Thalmor into fights so he can kill them, loot their bodies, and trade their gear for seps.  Bardoc has lots and lots of money.  He gives to beggars and orphans, never kills foxes, and dreams of his chance to kill Ulfric so he can loot his body and sell his stuff for seps.

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    • 99.13.118.232 wrote:
      My Dragonborn is an Orc.  Bardoc the Bruiser.  Bardoc doesn't like that they dragged him into their politics.  He leads Saadia to the stables and once Kematu pays him he piledriver kills Kematu and loots his body.  When Saadia wakes up and attacks him he beheads her and loots her body (no bounty gained). He then goes back to the cave, kills all the Alik'r and loots their bodies and the entire cave.  He heads straight to Whiterun, sells all loot for seps, and throws a cut to his housecarl because she cracks many skulls in his name. 

      On the road he goads all Thalmor into fights so he can kill them, loot their bodies, and trade their gear for seps.  Bardoc has lots and lots of money.  He gives to beggars and orphans, never kills foxes, and dreams of his chance to kill Ulfric so he can loot his body and sell his stuff for seps.

      I wish I had a FANDOM account so I could give kudos to this message :D

      Long live Bardoc the Bruiser! Seems like a great guy especially since he never kills foxes.

      May he kill many more on his adventures, loot their bodies and sell their stuff for seps!

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    • Yes definite props to Bardoc the Bruiser, 10/10 would fight by his side.

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    • My god, I think I am an utter moron. In was using clairvoyance to try and team her down, not really knowing a thing about this quest. However, I apparently managed to select the quest where you get the first part of the whirlwind shout. I go there, barely making it through the death lord ad dying 21 times. I get the shout, run the fray away from the boss (level 8 btw), and then I notice the quest is gone after I get back to the beginning. That's when I look it up, and I flip out. But anyways, enough ranting. I agree with the girl, though I am slightly suspicious. Sorry for making you read all that:).

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    • I've decided that the only thing we know for sure about this quest, other than the same things people keep citing over and over, is that it strongly supports the idea of confirmation bias. The woman is guilty or innocent depending upon one's pre-existing notions regarding a variety of factors involved in the quest. The truth is that the truth in this storyline does not matter. It's just whatever you want to believe it to be.

      Having said that, I'll go ahead and share my choices and reasoning--then there'll be one more comment on the interwebz regarding something nobody will care about in 100 years. Consider that for a moment and let it sink in. How much of what you do will matter in 2 or 3 generations? You can change that if you want to.

      I usually side with Saadia. Why?

      1. The quest name suggests something about the reality--"In My Time of Need." This is a literary technique used to suggest something about the state of mind of the central figure--Saadia. Villains and assassins don't generally think that way. Oh, sure, mundane I'm-not-evil-I'm-just-... (insert whatever you want here--following orders, getting by, making a living) types might think that way, but this is generally meant to indicate the person feels persecuted or victimized. Such persons are not always innocent, but they are more likely in need of help than armed thugs. I know there are exceptions, but without more to go on, I'll side with the persecuted every day of the week. Now, if she deserved the attention she got, that's a different story, but I'm not given enough to know that, so I'll err on the side of caution, generosity, kindness, and the underdog. Prove me wrong after the fact, and well, accidents can happen any time and place.

      2. The thugs looking for her can randomly be seen out in the countryside of Skyrim harassing lone women on the road. You want to convince me you're the good guys, but you're harassing people you might want to escort to a safe place like an inn or something? You can jump in a lake.

      3. You don't know anyone in the country, but you're claiming you're an enemy of the High Elves--in a country about to be in open civil war, and your homeland/employers have a bitter enmity against the empire, yet, instead of holding up with Stormcloaks or Ulfric sympathizers while seeking this woman, you hold up in the imperial half of Skyrim... with a bunch of bandits... in a cave, a cave known as Swindler's Den. You can jump in a lake.

      4. You walk around speaking finely and trying to seem reasonable, but you leave one of your own behind to rot in prison because he was captured--and doing what? Having seen the guards run the other two out of Whiterun,  I'm still clueless about what he actually did. He had a curved sword perhaps? They all did. At any rate, any group who claim to be the best, who willingly abandon their own, are dishonorable scum. You never leave anyone behind, ever.

      5. If you do hand her over to be taken back for trial, she ends up in the Hall of the Dead. Hmmm.... How'd that happen?

      6. I like things to go in my personal arsenal, trophy rooms, etc. I also like money. I also like killing scum who hide in caves and pretend to be something they aren't. 20 guys surrounding the entrance with curved swords against me. Sounds like a fair fight. (And it isn't anywhere close to 20, but that always plays well to the ladies at the tavern afterward.)

      7. In the end, there were two parties seeking a favorable resolution. Both of them lied to the lawgiver, both of them paid for their lies in like kind. The woman got what remained of her crappy life back--and paid me for the privilege. The man got his eternal reward in the afterlife--and paid me for the privilege.. albeit post mortem. Justice is served.

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    • I reiterate what I have always said.

      Help Kematu, betray him after he pays you, magic Saadia's money out of her by charming her with illusions, then kill her too. Loot everything. Profiting from the situation is the least you can do.

      I mean, you don't even have to decide on taking sides if you killed both sides. You get more profit too.

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    • Warning: English is not my main language.

      If you look into CK, you find that Mralki and Saadia are friends. This leads to believe Saadia's story is obviously an unfinished one, and probably Mralki would have had a role to play in it if the quest would have been developed furthermore. For those who wonder who Mralki is, the man is the owner of the Frostfruit Inn in Rorikstead, and a veteran of the Great War for the Empire. And as with most characters in the game, not much details are explained on his past…to leave the player fill in the wholes with its imagination. Stating your beliefs upon the faction you aligned yourself, or moral judgement, is totally irrelevant, when almost no facts are available.

      I also find difficult to believe such a young woman could have played a determinant role in the capture of Taneth by the Dominion, on the other hand there is something shady about her, probably not personal, but by the nobility she represents for house Suda.

      When it comes to Mralki’s feeling about the Legion, we see he’s reluctant to give away information about the location of the Imperial courier by saying "I tend to keep my patrons' privacy.", from the False Front quest line if you align with the Stormcloaks.  The Wiki mentions he is still in the Legion’s faction, which is not true, check the CK, but this sole action in the game is enough to conclude his loyalty seems real.

      As for facts, this is in my opinion the best we can get, Saadia is friend with a veteran Legionnaire, her only relation in Skyrim. And that is really not much to conclude anything; as far I can tell, I found no hidden (unused) dialogues between the two since I looked a lot into the sultry lines for a mod I do. Also, if you put the two side by side, there is no interaction. Something was planned about them in development phase…and abandoned. Still, this unique friendship is something, I seriously doubt she can be aligned with the Dominion as a traitor to her people, but I could see her in a diplomatic/spying role though, if her quest would have been pushed on furthermore. Up to imagination, these two are not prime actors, their story is probably irrelevant to TES lore in its present state.

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    • 69.181.192.223 wrote: I might of noticed something, disregarding both sides and the stories themselves, the game seems to put a lot of focus on taking the coward's route out. THe coward's route is kematu becuase instead of taking the eight warriors head on, you get a potentially inoccent woman captured. And it has you lie to saadia that your own strengh wasn't enough, calling yourself weak as if the game mocks you. So it leads me to wonder, why would the game spit at your foot almost? I wonder...... not to mention it tries as hard as it can to bring the crushing guilt of betraying someone's trush on you

      Siding with Kematu doesn't mean that the player is a coward; it seems that he/she thinks he's the more trustworthy person.

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    • Remember guys, as Sanji said "A real man is someone who forgives a woman for her lies." I stand with Saadia 😎

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    • 112.207.104.104 wrote:
      wikia articles are evidences not proofs

      but they  are evidences

      No, they're really not evidence. In-game evidence is evidence. As someone already pointed out, the wikia article in question only lists Kematu as a source, which brings us back to the unsolvable issue of this quest, in that - as these sorts of quests always are - it's a case of he said/she said.

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    • well said

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    • its matters like these that should be heard and determined in court 

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    • ... Mmm so accorrding to some people's logic, Saadia "sold Hammerfell out to the Aldmeri Dominion" so she could tend bar and clean rooms at The Bannered Mare... I suppose there was no dragon and Helgen was really an inside job. And the Winterhold College Tragedy was a false flag operation and Savros Arven is just another crisis actor; also I guess Delphine is really a shill for the Thalmor and she is only just improvising the Dragonborn's next adventures following a botched ambush that took place within the Thalmor Embassy, and she also takes part in Black Sacraments with the other paedophiles in the Dark Brotherhood :/

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    • One thing I have learned about people in general is they run if they feel their life is in danger, innocent or guilty. if they do not believe in the power of the system they will be judged under as innocent they run, if they feel they will be judged fairly as guilty they will run.

      Here lies the inconsistencies, if she knew or said something she wasnt supposed to she would be silenced ASAP via asassin, and what better 'clean kill' to say she was colateral damage in the CIvil War.  From various dialogues all other nations know full well Skyrim is in a Civil War, its no secret and those other nations are doing what they can to make a profit, as would and does happen IRL, a Nobel fleeing to such a chaotic nation would be to disuade pursuers and trake advantage of the chaos to provide an asylum.

      Given the lengths to which she is being pursued and alive at that, it stinks of a Nobles 'game' for power, likely using manipulated/misinformation to make her appear traitor to further themselves, and their dedicated pursuit of 'justice' bringign her back to trial. The Alik'r may very well believe those who hired them was under the pretext that she was a traitor and running from persecution as she is likely being framed as back in Hammerfell, turning the people against her using superficial and circumstancial evidence.

      Case and point, they NEED her alive, politics is a dirty business, the more ignorant your people, the easier it is to sway, like Farengar says: "Straight to the point, eh? No need for tedious hows and whys. I like that. Leave those details to your betters, am I right?"  Just like how religion was created to expalin the unexplainable, then twisted into a tool to control the ignorant masses.

      Is she guilty of anything other than her Noble birth? Likely only that she is naiev to how politics work as nobility and got a rude awakening.  Either way both sides of the conflict are trying to use the situation of Skyrim to their advantage to gain support for their cause, desperation does that.  Why after doing this quest my first playthrough, I never took sides again.

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    • You can tell who is telling the truth by a few hints:

      When you first meet the Alik'r warriors in Whiterun, they are stopped by guards which don't let them walk around town to get their suspected traitor, Saadia. If asked, why are they looking for her, they refuse to provide reason. That alone is doesn't show the Alik'r in best light at least. If they had an underlying reason to take Saadia away, they would have some kind of order from higher places in Hammerfell, they would not be hiding their intentions. And they would get an official order to arrest her, but seems like they don't have good relationships with either emperor or their influence simply isn't enough powerful in Skyrim. That leaves them with no choice but to forcefully drag Saadia back to Hammerfell and execute her.

      While I don't believe Saadia story fully, I believe her arguments a little bit more. From her story, especially questionable is the part that she claims to be wanted by Thalmor. Even though Thalmor has a lot of influence not only in Skyrim but probably some in Hammerfell, I really doubt they would be looking for her because she is part of the Hamerfell nobility. But the fact that she had to change her name says she needed to get rid of her history in Hammerfell. What is the true reason of her being chased to another part of Tamriel, is still a little bit of mystery.

      My theory is, that the nobility in Hammerfell started to lose influence and the warriors of Alik'r successfully started some rebellions in cities situated by the great Alik'r desert, forcing nobility to retreat. The argument that Saadia betrayed Alik'r might have been an excuse. Well, it still doesn't really explain why would they've been chasing her even through province that's not their home.

      The whole truth might never be known and it's was probably the intention of Bethesda developers to let everyone make their own story of this.

      Actually this quest can be related to some famous refugees we see today in real world. There is always some truth in what the refugees are saying and sometimes there is part of the truth in the nations that are trying to arrest them abroad, they sometimes send agents or even try to murder those people when they fail all the attempts to bring them to justice.

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    • It's fun reading the comments here of people trying to find who's the bad guy and who's the good. And what's more fun is that I'm commenting in this article for a game that has been released way back 2011. Damn this game is really good.

      That aside, on my first play of this quest, I was only thinking of what's the best choice, and that is answerable by which one has greater rewards. Of course I chose to sell Sadia, kill Kematu, then calm Saadia, then ask her to pay me.

      But after reading the comments here of people finding loopholes of each other's sides, I am more willing to side with Saadia at this point.

      This is what I believed in so far:

      1. Sadia was a noble. A great noble who has enough influence or has done something enough to make a group of Alik'r men to track her, and drag her back ALIVE to Hammerfell. If she isn't then they could have assassinated her in the first place.

      2. The Thalmor part is nothing but an excuse for both sides to incite the Dragonborn, or any other Skyrim resident, coz almost everyone in Skyrim (especially the Nords) hate those yellow knife-eared bastards.

      3. Both sides are clever in their words. Or the Dragonborn is an idiot. Both sides made use of the Thalmor's bad reputation to incite the heart of the Dragonborn.

      Whatever happened to them in the past, I don't know. What is important is the present. Saadia is now a powerless barmaid in the Bannered Mare. When she pulled her knife I first thought she's going to kill herself rather than to get caught, then get the Dragonborn charged with murder in the process. (But we know that it does not work to this game where these paper NPC's chase out a freaking dragon with their butter daggers). A desperate move for a desperate woman. Kematu only talks to you once you "proven your strength" to him, and that is by killing all the bandits you encounter in that dungeon they're hiding. Meaning you can't be dealt with by brute force that easily. Clever punk does not want to die eh?

      Putting facts aside, why is the quest entitled "In My Time of Need"? Just who is needing help in this quest? And why, of all the caves in Skyrim, would Kematu choose to reside in a lair called "SWINDLER'S DEN"???? I think it's an obvious subliminal messaging.

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    • It sounds to me like Kematu is telling the truth. Let's play through the series of events:

      Saadia betrays her city to the AD.The city falls and Saadia lives the high life there, in a position of wealth and trust, since the AD are grateful to her. Those who still live in the city, but hate the AD become aware that Saadia is the one responsible for the fall of the city, so they hire some local mercs/ assassins to properly repay her for role in toppling their city. Saadia survives the first attempt on her life, thanks to her AD allies and/ or bodyguards. She realises, however, that sooner or later, she's toast, so she flees the city to try to start a new life under an assumed name...

      ... Leading us to Skyrim.



      To find out if this is true, all we need is the current status of the city of Taneth. If it is in AD hands, then Kematu has the truth of it. If not, then Kematu is lying. Unfortunately, all reports seem to indicate Taneth has indeed fallen.

      Ps: The AD doesn't seem to care about people who 'bad mouth' them, certainly not to the point of sending expensive assassins after them! I'm inclined to believe Kematu.

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    • Look ill say this...at that time the high elves WARED WITH THE REDGUARDS and saadia speaking out,againts the diminin was like CHINA saying fuck trump. and if u ask the lady in solitude aka the redguard envoy she says whats a alikr and if u say WHAT there are aka warrior's for hammer fell she says bo there assassins PS,SAADIAS URN US IN THE HALL OF THE DEAD IF U SIDE EITH THR ALIKR

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    • eh watch yer language brah

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    • We don't know if Saadia's ashes in the Hall of the Dead mean that she was killed. If a character is taken out of the game, Bethseda puts their ashes in the Hall of the Dead.

      We don't know if that's an oversight or canon yet.

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    • "If a character is taken out of the game, Bethseda puts their ashes in the Hall of the Dead."

      Not to disagree but doesn't somebody get placed in the hall if they are KILLED? 

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    • ummm I asked on the Bethesda help and hints web site and it was confirmed in skyrim that the ashes of dead saadia if kamato gets her ass is in the HoTD i have several Youtube Videos confirming it and one from The Bethesda help and hints web site soooo yea and its even in Skyrim code and dont say "AND how would you know that" cuz my ANSWER would be thats how people make game mods...Alter game code

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    • The Beautiful Princess Ashley
      The Beautiful Princess Ashley removed this reply because:
      unnecessary hostility
      13:58, October 10, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • The Beautiful Princess Ashley
      The Beautiful Princess Ashley removed this reply because:
      reply to removed message
      13:58, October 10, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • One thing kept bothering me about this quest. A lot of people have mentioned if she were fleeing the TAD then why would she go to Skyrim or better yet why would she go to Whiterun of all places? Kematu mentions that she is a noble and it makes sense that she would be better protected from the TAD in Hammerfell since the treaty saw the retraction of their forces from Hammerfell. They are actively against the TAD. That leads me to believe she fled for other reasons like part of Hammerfells royalty supports them while others don't and since she doesn't she must be silenced. I usually side with her. Why else would she flee Hammerfell unless the royals there wanted to kill her. Plus if Kematu is working with the Thalmor then why isn't he allowed in Whiterun? It's a legion controlled city which is under the employ of the TAD. His story makes less sense than hers.

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    • 2605:6000:ECC8:9D00:A41F:6E21:3AFA:3F82 wrote:
      This whole debate is debate is very interesting.  It reminds me of that episode of Rick and Morty...

      Stop - just, oh my f**king god, please stop right there...

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    • Saadia is clearly the truthful one...irrefutable evidence as follows.

      1) The timeline doesn't add up: Kematu says she sold out a city that led to it's fall, but Hammerfell pushed out the Dominion a good 20 years ago, going by the 3rd/4th era timeline on this site. That would mean the city fell, and was recaptured, at least 20 years ago. Using the high estimate (imo) of Saadia's age as 35, this would make her 15 at the oldest when she "sold out the city." Also, why would Kematu only be coming after her now, 20 years later?

      2) Just because Hammerfell pushed back the Dominion 20 years ago, doesn't mean that their government is trying to become hostile with the Dominion at this time. they have had peace for 20 years after a tough war, and not all factions of their government would be pro war at this point. However, Saadia could have been a voice speaking out against the growing Dominion influence in other countries, arguing that a more aggressive stance should be taken against the Dominion. If this wasn't already the consensus in the Hammerfell government, the Dominion and their spies would want to quiet her as soon as possible.

      3) It's obvious that Kematu and his men are thuggish mercenaries at best. They are clearly doing it for money, not for duty as an official Hammerfell task force would be.

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    • A FANDOM user
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